Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

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Disco
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Disco » 21 Nov 2016, 09:44

What a shitty night sleep, that's exactly what you want on a Sunday night.. went to bed early, fell asleep... big storm woke me up that seemed to go on for hours with lightning/thunder and it was stupidly hot, then at some point the dog started going off in the living room, so lights on charge out with my bat to investigate...nothing.

Go back to bed, then get cold, and then it was time to get up. Fuck.
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Spooler » 21 Nov 2016, 09:52

Otto-matic Reiffel wrote:Lots of people here really like vigilantism. Also summary executions.

I'm a fan mostly because i have seen juries make unbelievably stupid verdicts-only to see the "accused" a year laer in the same courtroom for something as horrific or worse.

One of the victims I spent some time helping out when I was in Adelaide had an accused that had done the same thing to someone else, got not guilty did it to her, got not guilty again. She messaged a couple of weeks ago to let me know she was having a hard time because she'd been informed by the officer that handled her case that the "accused" had been arrested again.
You cannot fathom how horrible that is for a person to hear.

Here's where the system is broken, because he wasn't convicted the jury cannot be made aware that this is the third time grande asshole has been accused of the same thing, that very strong cases were made against him but that the juries for whatever idiotic reason decided his lawyer ARGUED BETTER.

And that is why the justice system is a steaming pile of shit, it's not a studied and weighted evaluation of the evidence, it's an argument aimed at distorting fact and making your side sound the most "believable". It's ridiculous that people are content with it and earnestly believe it's the best we can do.
Nekosan wrote:
Otto-matic Reiffel wrote:Lots of people here really like vigilantism. Also summary executions.

I mean why not? Nobody ever faked a molestation/rape case to get back at someone for some tiny slight did they?


What could possibly go wrong?
The world is slightly less over populated ?
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Otto-matic Reiffel » 21 Nov 2016, 12:13

Sure there are cases where people who are guilty go free, but personally I would rather that than innocent people getting lynched because of wild accusations. That's the kind of shit we should have outgrown by now.
Spooler wrote:The world is slightly less over populated ?
So you are in favour of randomly choosing 1 in 5 people to be executed to help over-population? Or would it be better to just 'randomly' pick those you consider to be undesirables?
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Disco » 21 Nov 2016, 12:27

Otto-matic Reiffel wrote:Sure there are cases where people who are guilty go free, but personally I would rather that than innocent people getting lynched because of wild accusations. That's the kind of shit we should have outgrown by now.
While I get what you're saying, that expression probably doesn't hold too well to someone who suffers because they were let free for whatever reason. It would just be nice if there was some sort of magial, fool proof way to have someone admit guilt if they were guilty.
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Spooler » 21 Nov 2016, 13:09

Otto-matic Reiffel wrote:Sure there are cases where people who are guilty go free, but personally I would rather that than innocent people getting lynched because of wild accusations. That's the kind of shit we should have outgrown by now.
Innocent person gets lynched one person suffers.

Guilty person gets away with it many persons suffer.


Honestly though you're right you can't just shoot everyone ever accused of anything.


but there seriously needs to be some fucking middle ground between "beyond all reasonable doubt" and "shoot everyone accused of everything ever".

Disco wrote:While I get what you're saying, that expression probably doesn't hold too well to someone who suffers because they were let free for whatever reason.
Honestly ... it's usually even worse for the first victim, not only will they never get any justice but it's pretty much a certainty if (when usually) they hear the offender has hurt someone else that they feel incredibly guilty for not being "good enough in court" and "losing". Even more painful is when there's a suicide and the family has to suffer through that.

Otto-matic Reiffel wrote:So you are in favour of randomly choosing 1 in 5 people to be executed to help over-population? Or would it be better to just 'randomly' pick those you consider to be undesirables?
Seems abit wasteful, can I start a Colosseum instead ?

The original comment was a bit tongue in cheek, but I have met people in my life that genuinely do not deserve to live. There are people that are just evil and destructive
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Otto-matic Reiffel » 21 Nov 2016, 14:21

Spooler wrote: Innocent person gets lynched one person suffers.

Guilty person gets away with it many persons suffer.
That's rarely true for the first part, purely because those doing the lynching become the guilty. Never mind the victim's family, friends and the community living in fear of the mob.
Spooler wrote:Honestly though you're right you can't just shoot everyone ever accused of anything.
but there seriously needs to be some fucking middle ground between "beyond all reasonable doubt" and "shoot everyone accused of everything ever".
There's the problem. As a society are we happy with innocent people being punished if it gets more guilty people punished too? What are the repercussions of that?
Personally I'm more in favour of no innocent punished. Not to say the current system doesn't need an overhaul.
Spooler wrote:
Disco wrote:While I get what you're saying, that expression probably doesn't hold too well to someone who suffers because they were let free for whatever reason.
Honestly ... it's usually even worse for the first victim, not only will they never get any justice but it's pretty much a certainty if (when usually) they hear the offender has hurt someone else that they feel incredibly guilty for not being "good enough in court" and "losing". Even more painful is when there's a suicide and the family has to suffer through that.

Otto-matic Reiffel wrote:So you are in favour of randomly choosing 1 in 5 people to be executed to help over-population? Or would it be better to just 'randomly' pick those you consider to be undesirables?
Seems abit wasteful, can I start a Colosseum instead ?
OH&S would like a word with you...
Spooler wrote:The original comment was a bit tongue in cheek, but I have met people in my life that genuinely do not deserve to live. There are people that are just evil and destructive
Are you sure you are the right person to decide who lives and who dies? As a society in Australia we've decided that nobody can make that decision, for the best really.

Prison system needs fixed too, since it isn't just those who do manage to get not-guilty that reoffend. Has to be something to what the countries with really low recidivism rates are doing that we aren't. If this could be fixed, odds are we could shift the current balance of reasonable doubt.
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by GamingKen » 21 Nov 2016, 14:56

Nekosan wrote: Read this as a child and have wanted to drink cola underwater ever since:



Image
I read the whole Adventure series by Willard Price as a kid! Fantastic series and a real highlight of my childhood. I'd say they were the books that bridged my way from children's books to adult fiction. In fact, I'd put this series and The Hobbit down as the credits for that when I was young.
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Spooler » 21 Nov 2016, 14:59

Otto-matic Reiffel wrote:
Spooler wrote:Honestly though you're right you can't just shoot everyone ever accused of anything.
but there seriously needs to be some fucking middle ground between "beyond all reasonable doubt" and "shoot everyone accused of everything ever".
There's the problem. As a society are we happy with innocent people being punished if it gets more guilty people punished too? What are the repercussions of that?
Personally I'm more in favour of no innocent punished. Not to say the current system doesn't need an overhaul.
Let me first address "no innocent punished".
The problem here is that it is utterly delusional, you know what happens if you're a 17 year old speaking out against your parents abusing you and you lose the court case ? your family ends up utterly divided into the camp of "she's a horrible liar" and "fuck that side of the family" if you're lucky one uncle/aunty will try to help you.

The real problem though... all the government support you were getting to help pay for mental health services ? well that's gone. out of the three people i met in this circumstance two of the three one male one female committed suicide within a year.
To say that innocent people don't get punished when the guilty get away with it is utterly delusional.

And that's just the original victim in too many cases the accused is straight back in court
The worst case I have ever heard of 3 kids in the same family came forward against the father. Because the mother was a "good Christian woman" that stood by her husband in all 3 got not guilty verdicts, none of which could be brought up the next time it happend because he's innocent of those crimes in the eyes of the law. It wasn't untill the 4th that the guy actually got a guilty verdict and that was purely because he tried to invite one of his friends to "join in" and the friend testified against him rather than being an utterly remorseless and evil PoS.

I could go on and on and on but to say that the innocent don't get punished because of how absurdly easy it is to convince a jury to have "doubts".


Am I happy with more innocent people getting punished.
It depends on the crime and the nature of the crime honestly. Crimes, that seriously harm others especially those most vulnerable should have a much better level of flexibility in evidence/guilty ratio.

The system we have does punish innocent people and that's not ideal.

But quite honestly at the very least when you are arrested and brought before the courts for a similar crime the jury should be allowed to be made aware of that. It's beyond messed up when you have a coffee with the crown prosecutor and they tell you "yea that's second third fourth time he's beaten the crap out of a girlfriend, can't bring it up in court though that would be unfair to him."
Otto-matic Reiffel wrote:Are you sure you are the right person to decide who lives and who dies? As a society in Australia we've decided that nobody can make that decision, for the best really.
Sure ? Why not ? You enjoy hurting innocent people ? You don't deserve to live, christ I'll swing the axe myself.

I honestly believe anyone who thinks "no one ever deserves the death penalty" have never really seen horrifically evil people first hand or really empathised with those they hurt.

Otto-matic Reiffel wrote:Prison system needs fixed too, since it isn't just those who do manage to get not-guilty that reoffend. Has to be something to what the countries with really low recidivism rates are doing that we aren't. If this could be fixed, odds are we could shift the current balance of reasonable doubt.
Fully agree
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Disco » 21 Nov 2016, 16:54

So the rock spider has been named locally and was mentioned in court this afternoon, there was a fairly large gathering of very angry people outside the courthouse and I couldn't decide whether they were pro the offender or not, but they didn't have any ropes for lynching
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by kharis » 21 Nov 2016, 17:05

was it a local person?
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Otto-matic Reiffel » 21 Nov 2016, 17:21

Spooler wrote: Let me first address "no innocent punished".
The problem here is that it is utterly delusional, you know what happens if you're a 17 year old speaking out against your parents abusing you and you lose the court case ? your family ends up utterly divided into the camp of "she's a horrible liar" and "fuck that side of the family" if you're lucky one uncle/aunty will try to help you.

The real problem though... all the government support you were getting to help pay for mental health services ? well that's gone. out of the three people i met in this circumstance two of the three one male one female committed suicide within a year.
To say that innocent people don't get punished when the guilty get away with it is utterly delusional.

And that's just the original victim in too many cases the accused is straight back in court
The worst case I have ever heard of 3 kids in the same family came forward against the father. Because the mother was a "good Christian woman" that stood by her husband in all 3 got not guilty verdicts, none of which could be brought up the next time it happend because he's innocent of those crimes in the eyes of the law. It wasn't untill the 4th that the guy actually got a guilty verdict and that was purely because he tried to invite one of his friends to "join in" and the friend testified against him rather than being an utterly remorseless and evil PoS.

I could go on and on and on but to say that the innocent don't get punished because of how absurdly easy it is to convince a jury to have "doubts".


Am I happy with more innocent people getting punished.
It depends on the crime and the nature of the crime honestly. Crimes, that seriously harm others especially those most vulnerable should have a much better level of flexibility in evidence/guilty ratio.

The system we have does punish innocent people and that's not ideal.

But quite honestly at the very least when you are arrested and brought before the courts for a similar crime the jury should be allowed to be made aware of that. It's beyond messed up when you have a coffee with the crown prosecutor and they tell you "yea that's second third fourth time he's beaten the crap out of a girlfriend, can't bring it up in court though that would be unfair to him."
I think you've come at it from the opposite side to my intention. Wrongful conviction is what I meant, where a person who did not commit the crime is punished for it. Happens quite regularly unfortunately and by all accounts Australia is really bad at redressing this. Also has the follow on problem that once there is a conviction investigation often stop so the real culprit can do it again. Yes, innocents are hurt in most crime, but hurting more innocents is not the answer.

I agree with you in that evidence from previous cases should be able to be brought to a trial. Not too sure about bringing in specifics about previous not-guilty charges, but sure to pattern of behaviour stuff. eg Girlfriend #1 reported them to police for beating her, now girlfriend #2 has reported the same thing. If the defence is stupid enough to bring up the previous charges, that's on them but would probably result in a mistrial.
Spooler wrote:Sure ? Why not ? You enjoy hurting innocent people ? You don't deserve to live, christ I'll swing the axe myself.

I honestly believe anyone who thinks "no one ever deserves the death penalty" have never really seen horrifically evil people first hand or really empathised with those they hurt.
I really and sincerely hope that you are never in a position where you could do this. Whatever your victim support role is, please go and seek professional help for yourself if you do not already.

Putting aside killing wrongfully convicted people, how many of those monsters are mentally ill? Probably a significant proportion. By killing them you lose the chance to study why they do what they do and how to prevent it in others. Wouldn't it be much better if we could stop the crime before it happened in some way? Even the ones who are sane (for a very loose definition of sane) can be useful stamping license plates for the rest of their lives.
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Spooler » 21 Nov 2016, 17:50

Otto-matic Reiffel wrote: Even the ones who are sane (for a very loose definition of sane) can be useful stamping license plates for the rest of their lives.
Take the money you're paying to keep them alive and give it to someone without a job ?
Otto-matic Reiffel wrote:I really and sincerely hope that you are never in a position where you could do this. Whatever your victim support role is, please go and seek professional help for yourself if you do not already.
Support role was, since I moved I no longer do it.
Why do i need professional help ?

It's not like im going to go and murder someone, no matter how badly i believe that person deserves to die.

Unless you're referring to the fact hat I'd be fine executing someone in which case how do you feel about the armed forces ?

Otto-matic Reiffel wrote:By killing them you lose the chance to study why they do what they do and how to prevent it in others. Wouldn't it be much better if we could stop the crime before it happened in some way?
I doubt it but alright study every violent criminal then put them to death.
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by CherryRed » 21 Nov 2016, 17:57

"A MAN accused of sexually assaulting a child at Elephant Park on Friday was not present when he was formally refused bail in Orange Local Court on Monday.

Brendan James Smith, 37, was represented in court by Aboriginal Legal Service solicitor Nidal Abdi on a charge of sexual intercourse with a child under the age of 10 years.

He did not apply for bail and will remain in custody and will appear via audio visual link when the matter is next raised on January 23.

Smith will also have a separate hearing on January 11 for older charges including having custody of a knife in a public place, resisting an officer in the execution of their duty, offensive language in a public place as well as two charges of stalking/intimidation and intending physical harm."


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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by CherryRed » 21 Nov 2016, 17:58

And yes, Kharis, he is a local grub.


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Mugsy wrote:
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Matty » 21 Nov 2016, 20:46

Spooler wrote: You enjoy hurting innocent people ? You don't deserve to live, christ I'll swing the axe myself.
Spooler wrote: Innocent person gets lynched one person suffers.

Guilty person gets away with it many persons suffer.
Spooler wrote: Am I happy with more innocent people getting punished.
It depends on the crime and the nature of the crime honestly.
lol. Start swinging, mate.

Spooler wrote:There are people that are just evil and destructive
You know the more you speak your mind, the more I think this about you.
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Mini » 21 Nov 2016, 21:10

Umm, I think this has gone past a friendly discussion now and should probably end now... we don't want any personal attacks.

Also as a complete topic change... fuck Victorian weather... 38 today, and 21 tomorrow. This is just asking for everyone to get a cold from the huge changes...
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Spooler » 21 Nov 2016, 21:35

Matty wrote:lol. Start swinging, mate.
Honestly if a criminal investigation has found you are worth prosecuting there's at the very least a case but your right lets use the broadest context of innocent possible

Matty wrote:You know the more you speak your mind, the more I think this about you.
Proving what I was saying before. You have no idea what evil actually is or how horrific the destruction some people cause to other's really is.

I've hurt two people in my life one to defend myself and one to quite stop someone hurting someone else any further than they already had.

If your benchmark for evil is, really doesn't want innocent people getting hurt or to force them through a legal system that dehumanises them and far too often fails to deliver justice or protect the public.
Then sure I'm about as evil and horrible as you can get.
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Matty » 21 Nov 2016, 23:15

We all understand the gravity of the situation mate, it's just we just don't handle our emotions like a teenager.
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Spooler » 22 Nov 2016, 00:32

:geek:
Matty wrote:We all understand the gravity of the situation mate, it's just we just don't handle our emotions like a teenager.
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Spooler » 22 Nov 2016, 00:33

Eh
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Disco » 22 Nov 2016, 09:11

Had an early start today, so I've decided that I'm going to take an executive lunch and get a hair cut while I'm out if I can
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Yurtles » 22 Nov 2016, 10:32

There's a Currawong that's taken up residence in my backyard and thinks it's a rooster. Very first sign of daylight it starts going off it's head. This is my life now.
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Disco » 22 Nov 2016, 10:44

Or you could.. resolve the issue by making it dead
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Yurtles » 22 Nov 2016, 10:46

Yeah... but then I'd have to get out of bed. It's a bit of a sophie's choice really.
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Disco » 22 Nov 2016, 10:50

Could always set up a cage, trap it, then deal with it once you wake up? I had good success accidentally catching birds in my rat cage although you'd need something bigger for a Currawong - cat trap maybe?
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