I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Nekosan » 22 Jan 2016, 21:15

Matty wrote:Also cat food costs more than normal food.

Now we know whose cats eat a $5 tin of Fancy Feast every meal :lol:

Matty wrote:Welfare barely covers food. If your dole bulging friends are bragging about their sweet lifestyle, then you know, perhaps they are lying about that too. And you should probably find some better friends.

I'm on Austudy. *shrugs* Our welfare system really isn't that bad.
Austudy is perfectly acceptable, you're increasing your employability.

As for welfare barely covering food, part of my job involves finance applications and I've SEEN what some people are pulling from the government for doing sweet fuck all.... in some cases it's better than i earn for working my ass off.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Matty » 22 Jan 2016, 21:54

They deserve the best!
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Yurtles » 22 Jan 2016, 23:03

With what I realise is a fairly selfish view, meh. They could magically fix the welfare system tomorrow to work perfectly, saving whatever amount of money and I guarantee I'd still be paying the same amount in taxes. So what does it really matter?
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Nekosan » 23 Jan 2016, 01:02

You wouldnt prefer to use those taxes on something else?
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Sathias » 23 Jan 2016, 07:45

Nekosan wrote:You wouldnt prefer to use those taxes on something else?
I'd prefer to use the Defence budget on something else too, but wishing doesn't change the reality that its necessary. There are proven links between poverty and crime, the less you have in the welfare safety net the more you need to spend on policing and prisons.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Dexterians » 23 Jan 2016, 10:39

Spooler wrote:
Dexterians wrote:For every 1 legit person on the dole there's 1 person taking advantage of it.

I think your friend is talking about the latter, the proper "dole bludger".

Source ?
Every single data point I have seen on it seems to suggest that the number is far far fewer than that.
Mate it was a figure of speech, I wasn't quoting statistics.

Like I said, and many people before me in this thread have said which you seem to constantly avoid answering.. while yes there may be some LEGITIMATE - what of the ILLIGITIMATE ONES who run their "recreational" hobbies and businesses off our tax dollars? Would you consider them bludgers, or do you think they're making a legitimate contribution?
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Yurtles » 23 Jan 2016, 11:26

Nekosan wrote:You wouldnt prefer to use those taxes on something else?
That's the selfish bit. Or self-centred I guess. Nothing particularly glaring that could do with more tax money around my life. It'd all be the same with a bit more or less government money.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by storm84 » 23 Jan 2016, 12:02

Nekosan wrote:You wouldnt prefer to use those taxes on something else?
Using hte money for catching the dole bludgers and disability fakers?
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Spooler » 23 Jan 2016, 18:32

Dexterians wrote:
Spooler wrote:
Dexterians wrote:For every 1 legit person on the dole there's 1 person taking advantage of it.

I think your friend is talking about the latter, the proper "dole bludger".

Source ?
Every single data point I have seen on it seems to suggest that the number is far far fewer than that.
Mate it was a figure of speech, I wasn't quoting statistics.

Like I said, and many people before me in this thread have said which you seem to constantly avoid answering.. while yes there may be some LEGITIMATE - what of the ILLIGITIMATE ONES who run their "recreational" hobbies and businesses off our tax dollars? Would you consider them bludgers, or do you think they're making a legitimate contribution?

Are you asking if I approve of drug dealers and users getting centerlink payments ?

That's a completely different issue and if there's criminal activity that's a matter for the police to investigate. They should not stop receiving payments if they are genuinely entitled to them, they can spend that money however they want. If they how they are spending that money is illegal, then its a matter for the justice system to determine and punish them accordingly.

If you want to argue that all drug users should be stripped of access to welfare that's fine but realise that when they go from minor drug possession charges to theft and destruction of property charges they're going to cost far FAR more in the legal system.


Also realise that there's no reason to believe that a large population of people on welfare are drug users or criminals.
to say "there may be some LEGITIMATE" is to drastically mis-understand the situation, the majority of people on welfare are not receiving it illegitimately infact they're a very small minority.



The thing is not only are they an incredibly small portion of welfare users but there's entire systems designed to catch them. The attitude that the system somehow supports these people is absurd.



If you are committing fraud or other criminal behaviour you're not a bludger you're a CRIMINAL.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Matty » 24 Jan 2016, 03:03

Dexterians wrote:while yes nearly all are LEGITIMATE
FTFY.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Dexterians » 24 Jan 2016, 07:12

Spooler wrote:The thing is not only are they an incredibly small portion of welfare users but there's entire systems designed to catch them. The attitude that the system somehow supports these people is absurd..
The fact you don't realise it's happening is absurd.
Spooler wrote:Also realise that there's no reason to believe that a large population of people on welfare are drug users or criminals.
to say "there may be some LEGITIMATE" is to drastically mis-understand the situation, the majority of people on welfare are not receiving it illegitimately infact they're a very small minority.
I don't think it's drastic. I think 1 bludger is 1 bludger too many. I don't care how many thousands of legitimate people there are on welfare, I'll say it again; they are not who we are talking about, the fact there ARE bludgers is enough to call those that fall in the category a bludger. You're missing the point - your friend doesn't like the BLUDGER - he's not talking about the legitimate person. Do you understand yet?

You can argue all you like about how many legitimate people there are on welfare, but the fact there's still people exploiting the system - it's those he's referring to as the DOLE BLUDGER.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/dole-b ... e23809c4d6

I don't care it's 2014, I highly doubt much has changed in 2 years. That's a lot of bludgers my/our tax dollars is supporting.

Spooler wrote:If you are committing fraud or other criminal behaviour you're not a bludger you're a CRIMINAL.
Yes, you're right - but they also fall under the definition of BLUDGER;
dole-bludger
noun AUSTRALIAN/NZ informal
plural noun: dole-bludgers
a person who chooses to receive unemployment benefit rather than work.
Last edited by Dexterians on 24 Jan 2016, 07:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by storm84 » 24 Jan 2016, 07:20

So would you prefer your money going into catching them, or putting them through pointless enforcement activities to ensure legitimacy?

And lets say there are people who could be working, then what? Would you advocate cutting them off, and depriving them of any chance to live? Would you ensure that employers would actually hire these people, or is cutting them off simply punishment for not doing enough while being unemployed?

It's one thing to say "I don't like it that people are on welfare who are employable", but it's another to talk about what to do about it. What would be a sensible way to actually act on it?
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Dexterians » 24 Jan 2016, 07:25

storm84 wrote:It's one thing to say "I don't like it that people are on welfare who are employable", but it's another to talk about what to do about it. What would be a sensible way to actually act on it?
No - that's not what this thread is about.

This thread is about whether or not there is such a thing as a dole bludger, and unfortunately - there is. To deny it is absurd.

I know the solution isn't simple - I'm just saying I think the OP's friend was referring to the legitimate bludger rather than the tangent he took it on and that he shouldn't be such a sensitive nancy about it.


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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by storm84 » 24 Jan 2016, 07:28

Of there are such things as dole bludgers, and my reading of the OP was that dole bludgers formed an insignificant part of one's tax dollars - not that they didn't exist. Otherwise why go to the effort of quoting available jobs vs job seekers?

From the OP
"It's actually less than a percent that ends up going to "bludgers".
They have 0 economic impact, there's far worse things in the budget to concern yourself with.
Most of the money we spend helps families and the elderly."
Not really a denial of bludgers here.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Dexterians » 24 Jan 2016, 08:15

So you're in support of the average bludger then just because they don't have a massive impact on the budget?
Again, not speaking of those legitimately on welfare.

Is that what I'm meant to be understanding?


Spooler wrote:We're right at the start of the robot age, this is actually going to become a serious problem, how do we deal with unemployment when there's simply fewer things we need humans to do ?
That's rediculous - robots don't cause unemployment, they create the opposite. It creates new jobs and new opportunities and history is evidence of this. If you look at the historical unemployment rate, you’ll see that with technology advancing, unemployment has actually stayed the same or declined. There's a good article on this (and plenty of others on the web);

http://www.wired.com/2014/08/when-robot ... -us-to-do/

It's a problem but also not a problem - it's only a problem when the machine replaces the job and there's the unsettlement period but we adapt. There will be a displacement and there will be a repositioning of people into jobs that we don’t even have today that we will have in the future. If you look back in history, you’ll see that this disruption has been going on for some time. Not as fast as what we’re currently experiencing, but nonetheless there.

For example, bread making (to put it simply);

What actually happens is that we now need 50 people to make our bread and perhaps one to maintain the bread kneading machines. This leaves 49 people without a job: the robots have stolen the work. So, what do the 49 people do? Just curl up and die without work or an income?

No, of course not, because human desires and wants are infinite. So, what the 49 people go off and do is satisfy some other human desire given that we no longer need them to make the bread that is the staff of life. And if can be anything. Be a librarian, a ballet dancer, steel worker, lawn maintenance operative. This is what has actually happened as we have automated jobs in the past.

Robots will not be able to fulfill every job - and that's where we as humans will adapt. Perhaps not so much the bludgers... they'll just continue bludging - while the legitimate contributing human being will go out and seek new work or what not.
Last edited by Dexterians on 24 Jan 2016, 08:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by storm84 » 24 Jan 2016, 08:38

My personal view is...
* that everyone has the right to live.
* that money is a necessity to be able to live.
* that living on the dole isn't much of a life.
* that the poor redistribute that meagre income throughout the economy.
* that creation and enforcement of rules around welfare has its costs, and the more complex the rules and draconian the enforcement, the more we are spending on maintaining the system rather than on distribution to those in need.
* that our current economic model creates a surplus of people. (1 in 20 people are unemployed, not even mentioning underemployment)
* that current hiring practices mean certain groups are more likely to be on welfare. (over 50s, youth, long-term unemployed, etc.)
* that by moralising welfare payments, we get outraged and want to punish rather than thinking systematically.
* that everyone has the right to live.
* that money is a necessity to be able to live.
* that living on the dole isn't much of a life.

Which part of those do you disagree with?
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Dexterians » 24 Jan 2016, 08:40

storm84 wrote:Which part of those do you disagree with?
* that by moralising welfare payments, we get outraged and want to punish rather than thinking systematically.


I think that's exactly what people want - they want a solution where bludgers can't exploit the system.

I think it's unfair that there are some bludgers out there with more luxuries etc than someone who has worked for years on minimum wage - how is that fair? And it's THIS reason that people complain about bludgers. So I totally understand where the OPs friend is coming from.

But, as I've said before, finding a fair solution is not easy - but we definitely need one.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by storm84 » 24 Jan 2016, 08:56

So how does that happen? We already have a bloated and intrusive system to even get on welfare. We have a system where jobseekers have to report their efforts each week to find a job. And when that fails, they go into a work-for-the-dole program. So we have lots of ways already that jobseekers are punished (lose their meagre income) by the system for failing to comply. We spend a lot of money already on trying to ensure jobseekers are legitimate and that those that claim disability are disabled. Don't you see a bloated bureaucracy as a waste of money?

And in the end, what's the alternative? Would you want people to lose all income entirely? That irrespective of whether they can actually get a job, that we should take out what little money they have to live in order to punish them?
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Dexterians » 24 Jan 2016, 09:15

What is it with you and focusing on punishment?

Who is saying anything about punishing anyone other than yourself?

We're talking about coming up with a system that is FAIR and CAN'T BE EXPLOITED. Everything you're saying is completely WRONG. Not only do they get a wage, but they also get given houses - you're overlooking so many factors that make the system unfair already. Like I said, there are plenty of bludgers out there with more luxuries than someone who is working their ass off trying to make a legitimate living, and guess what? Guess who is supporting that bludgers luxurious lifestyle? Joe Bloggs on minimum wage whose doing what he can to put a roof over his own head, that's who. Again, how is that fair?

I'm sorry - but that bludger has no sympathy from me, Joe Bloggs gets my sympathy.
But going by everything you're saying, you still think bludger has it hard. You sir, are absurd.

So rather than focus on who to punish, why not focus on how to fix a broken system and make it fair and without exploits? I can't believe that this thread is in favor of the average dole bludger. And again, I'm going by TRUE definition of dole bludger - not the legitimate person on welfare - which yourself and the OP have completely overlooked. So here's the definition again;
dole-bludger
noun AUSTRALIAN/NZ informal
plural noun: dole-bludgers
a person who chooses to receive unemployment benefit rather than work.
And just so you don't overlook it again, I'll make the definition bigger for you;
a person who chooses to receive unemployment benefit rather than work.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by storm84 » 24 Jan 2016, 09:29

"What is it with you and focusing on punishment?"
A rose by any other name... it is punishment whether you couch it in the words "fair" or "exploited". You are talking about cutting people off their only means of income (it makes no sense to talk about people who are cheating the system, as that's not really bludging but criminals) for not having enough drive to get a job. What else is it but punishment?

"Not only do they get a wage, but they also get given houses - you're overlooking so many factors that make the system unfair already."
Are you talking about public housing? You make it sound so luxurious!

"Like I said, there are plenty of bludgers out there with more luxuries than someone who is working their ass off trying to make a legitimate living, and guess what? Guess who is supporting that bludgers luxurious lifestyle?"
I'd really like to see statistics on this.

But, again, what is the alternative? Nowhere am I seeing anything other than generalised bitching.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by storm84 » 24 Jan 2016, 09:31

Honestly, it sounds like you also disagree with these points:
* that everyone has the right to live.
* that money is a necessity to be able to live.
* that living on the dole isn't much of a life.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by storm84 » 24 Jan 2016, 09:34

Unemployment benefits: $523.40 / fortnight
Rent assistance max: $129.40 / fortnight
total: $326.80 / week

Minimum wage: $656.90 / week
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Dexterians » 24 Jan 2016, 09:38

Rather than look sillier than you already do - please take the time to READ my post and UNDERSTAND the definition of what a DOLE-BLUDGER actually is. You can obviously write posts, so you must have some level of ability to read and comprehend.

You've done nothing but justify the life of a bludger while demeaning the life of Joe Bloggs who is trying to make an honest living.

Minimum wage: $656.90 / week
That's more than what some people earn in an HONEST job. So again I ask, how is that fair?
If anything, you are saying people are better off not working.

And if that happens... how will that support the life of the bludger?
You sir have just created a conundrum. Well done.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Giblet » 24 Jan 2016, 09:39

Dexterians wrote:Guess who is supporting that bludgers luxurious lifestyle?
Luxurious? Just because they are getting a bit of money every fortnight and not working does not mean they are living a luxurious lifestyle. Luxurious is all down to perspective.


I find it funny that it's ingrained into us to always look down our noses at people, never look up. There are ~1826 Billionaires in the world and a lot of them are sitting on all that money, accumulating more every year. For what, what is even the point of having 79 billion dollars except to say "I have so and so more billion than you? They don't spend it, where it could help out the rest of society immensely. I'm not saying if billionaires spent their money the world problems would be fixed, but it is food for thought.

I'll just leave this here so you can get a true comprehension of what 1 billion dollars would be like.

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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Dexterians » 24 Jan 2016, 09:41

Giblet wrote:
Dexterians wrote:Guess who is supporting that bludgers luxurious lifestyle?
Luxurious? Just because they are getting a bit of money every fortnight and not working does not mean they are living a luxurious lifestyle. Luxurious is all down to perspective.
What is it with people taking stuff so literal? lol

You sir, are correct - luxury is perspective - and as I've already said, they live a more luxurious life than most. Whatever perspective of "luxury" you've chosen to go with in your mind is probably not the same as what I was meaning. I meant they are doing it better than Joe Bloggs as per my example.

And seeing you went down millionaire path, there are in fact people in housing commission whose houses are worth millions. Some have harbour views!

It seems people here are in support of dole-bludging. I'm astounded.
So tell me, and I asked this before but no one answered... if we all become dole bludgers, who will support us?
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