I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

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CherryRed
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by CherryRed » 22 Jan 2016, 08:52

I only know three people on government benefits.

The first was self-employed and had a solid on-going contract for a long time, that contract ended so now he's on benefits; he could be working, but he doesn't want to advertise or actively go and seek work. He is also not interested in finding a 'job' working for someone else.

The second has a medical condition that apparently affects her ability to work; she can't work for medical reasons, but she can work as a volunteer at Vinnies several days per week so she has first dibs on all the stuff that comes in. Go figure.

The third is married and has two children, but she never changed her name legally and her husband is registered as living elsewhere (even though he doesn't) and she is unemployed and claiming full time single parenting for two small children (even though she's not a single parent) and she has been doing this on and off for nearly 6 years. They live in a near-new 4 bedroom, 2 bathroom home, own two cars and manage to both smoke a pack-a-day. She is also not interested in looking for work.

I don't think "everyone" is a dole bludger, but of the three people that I personally know who are on benefits, not one of them are actively seeking work even if it isn't there to be found.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Otto-matic Reiffel » 22 Jan 2016, 11:27

#1 Is just a plain bludger, that's not too terrible.
#2 Could go either way. Volunteering at Vinnies is likely a lot easier than any job she is qualified for. Depending on her condition work stress could be what triggers bad things.
#3 Is probably welfare fraud. If they are going to bother coming down hard on anyone, this is where the effort should focus.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by CherryRed » 22 Jan 2016, 12:40

Otto-matic Reiffel wrote:#1 Is just a plain bludger, that's not too terrible.
#2 Could go either way. Volunteering at Vinnies is likely a lot easier than any job she is qualified for. Depending on her condition work stress could be what triggers bad things.
#3 Is probably welfare fraud. If they are going to bother coming down hard on anyone, this is where the effort should focus.
#1 yes, a bludger, that's the point. #2 I agree, although I should clarify that the items she gets 'first dibs' on are being stolen, not purchased - so whilst she is doing something productive by volunteering, she's undoing the good work by being a thief. #3 I hope she gets taken down one day for what she is doing, it's undeniably wrong.

Either way, my point is, personal experiences help shape how people feel about those receiving benefits - people like those mentioned above don't help the cause.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by storm84 » 22 Jan 2016, 12:45

#3 is definitely welfare fraud, and Centrelink does crack down on those - with jail being a real option.

With regards to disability, the ability to do volunteer work doesn't mean they can regularly show up to work. If their disability is flaring up, you can skip out on volunteer duty in a way places of work tend to frown upon. Of course whether the individual in question is doing that is another matter, though I'm pretty sure you're able to report people doing that to Centrelink.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by storm84 » 22 Jan 2016, 12:56

"people like those mentioned above don't help the cause"
That's the problem though - welfare is systematic, applying to everyone. And even if some people are 'doing the wrong thing', what's the alternative? People need money to live - it's an integral part to how a society operates. Would we in any way want to put people into a state of destitution and desperation because there are few people living on slightly better scraps than we feel they are entitled to? It'snot like a) it's a lot of money, and b) that money disappears. The thing about being poor is money is exchanged and put back into the economy.

One of the interesting things happening overseas now is the talk of paying everyone a minimum living wage. It'll be interesting to see how that works because it takes away the moral component to welfare and recognises that living requires money. The amount that goes into maintaining our current welfare system to work out who gets paid what and the conditions of enforcement is quite large. Yet that misses the point of what a welfare system is meant to do - it's not about judging the moral worth of an individual, but recognising that an individual needs money to survive irrespective of circumstances.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Disco » 22 Jan 2016, 13:02

This discussion is making a bigger splash over on reddit :lol:
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CherryRed
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by CherryRed » 22 Jan 2016, 13:09

I didn't suggest that we cease providing welfare, merely pointing out why I feel many people 'bitch' about dole bludgers.

I'm certainly not here to suggest how to fix the welfare system; I have never used it, know very little about how it works and have way better things to do with my time than spend half the day researching and writing a novel about it for a forum and/or social media discussion.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by GamingKen » 22 Jan 2016, 13:15

storm84 wrote:One of the interesting things happening overseas now is the talk of paying everyone a minimum living wage. It'll be interesting to see how that works because it takes away the moral component to welfare and recognises that living requires money. The amount that goes into maintaining our current welfare system to work out who gets paid what and the conditions of enforcement is quite large. Yet that misses the point of what a welfare system is meant to do - it's not about judging the moral worth of an individual, but recognising that an individual needs money to survive irrespective of circumstances.
I was listening to a discussion about that very subject on the BBC radio while doing jobs in Euro Truck Simulator 2 just the other day! It's an interesting concept.

As far as the fear mongering of people on Centrelink payments, you can thank the likes of A Current Affair for that, with their OTT voice-over adverts and hyped up stories.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Nekosan » 22 Jan 2016, 14:40

I'm more pissed about every "single mother" I've ever met who seems to be living in a defacto relationship and picking up hella benefits while her partner pays half the expenses (or more in many cases). I also see a lot of "carers" who are just looking after their overweight parents(i've done finance work for people who spend their entire carer pension, more than i earn, at EB and Subway), it pisses me off because it's damn hard to get help when you REALLY need it.


What blows my mind is how it's so hard for some people just to keep getting a cheque that barely pays the rent but then you see other idiots who somehow don't even have to go to interviews to keep getting benefits.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Spooler » 22 Jan 2016, 16:53

CherryRed wrote:
Otto-matic Reiffel wrote:#1 Is just a plain bludger, that's not too terrible.
#2 Could go either way. Volunteering at Vinnies is likely a lot easier than any job she is qualified for. Depending on her condition work stress could be what triggers bad things.
#3 Is probably welfare fraud. If they are going to bother coming down hard on anyone, this is where the effort should focus.
#1 yes, a bludger, that's the point. #2 I agree, although I should clarify that the items she gets 'first dibs' on are being stolen, not purchased - so whilst she is doing something productive by volunteering, she's undoing the good work by being a thief. #3 I hope she gets taken down one day for what she is doing, it's undeniably wrong.

Either way, my point is, personal experiences help shape how people feel about those receiving benefits - people like those mentioned above don't help the cause.
If she's living in the same house with a member of the opposite sex above the age of 18 you need to report it. As unless eh can prove she's not in a relationship with him or can prove he lives elsewhere what she is doing is straight up fraud. That's not even close to the same ball park it's not someone "bludging" it's someone committing a serious crime and they need to be held to account for it. Not to mention if they are doing this their taxes are being done incorrectly and that's yet another serious issue. You can even report it online https://www.centrelink.gov.au/wps/porta ... /TORS#stay

#1 eh there's not enough jobs in the market anyways who cares when the ration is like 2:1 instead of 6:1 then it might be worth pushing people harder to seek employment. Untill then you're either paying for someone who cant be bothered looking for work being unemployed, or you're paying for someone that would have loved the job that guy had filled and is instead unemployed.

#2 How do you know she's stealing ? Again it's unrelated to her personal physical/work situation but is illegal and needs to be reported and looked into.

1&2 are fine again if you think about it from a rational point of view these people are irrelevant if they're looking for work they still need to be paid for either way.

storm84 wrote:
With regards to disability, the ability to do volunteer work doesn't mean they can regularly show up to work. If their disability is flaring up, you can skip out on volunteer duty in a way places of work tend to frown upon. Of course whether the individual in question is doing that is another matter, though I'm pretty sure you're able to report people doing that to Centrelink.
Yea being able to go at your own pace is something many positions do not and cannot offer, I can understand how someone could help out at the local Vinnies but not be able to work the grain silos.

I'm always perplexed when I get told "do and so isn't actually suffering from a crippling nerve injury they're just faking it to get on work cover/unemployment." It's always for me a case of, really I didn't know you were a GP ?
Nekosan wrote:I'm more pissed about every "single mother" I've ever met who seems to be living in a defacto relationship and picking up hella benefits while her partner pays half the expenses (or more in many cases).
This interests me when 2 people of the opposite sex are living together, it's automatically assumed that they are in a relationship and any benefits claimed have to report the income of both people living at a given address. I'd love to know how people are getting away with that one.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by CherryRed » 22 Jan 2016, 17:03

Spooler wrote:If she's living in the same house with a member of the opposite sex above the age of 18 you need to report it.
Already reported, more than once - and there's actually 3 people (plus her) over 18 living in the same house, but she's the only one on the lease.
Spooler wrote:#2 How do you know she's stealing ? Again it's unrelated to her personal physical/work situation but is illegal and needs to be reported and looked into.
How I know is irrelevant and is information I'd prefer not to enter into on a public forum, however, I do know that she is stealing items from there on a regular basis for certain.
Spooler wrote:1&2 are fine again if you think about it from a rational point of view these people are irrelevant if they're looking for work they still need to be paid for either way.
Incorrect. #1 is/was a self-employed tradesman, he has the skills, availability and tools to continue working but because he doesn't have a fat contract sitting there with endless work coming at him on a silver platter, he'd prefer to take benefits than place an advertisement in the local paper or even a free advertisement on Gumtree.
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Mugsy wrote:
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I was raised to not do things I wouldn't want done to myself. And that's why anal sex is off the agenda.

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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Spooler » 22 Jan 2016, 17:38

CherryRed wrote:
Incorrect. #1 is/was a self-employed tradesman, he has the skills, availability and tools to continue working but because he doesn't have a fat contract sitting there with endless work coming at him on a silver platter, he'd prefer to take benefits than place an advertisement in the local paper or even a free advertisement on Gumtree.
So chances are this guy has paid substantially more in taxes than he has or will claim on welfare ? Unless you know for sure he's never going to work again, maybe he's just trying to organise another large contract for himself? And would rather devote his attention to getting said contract rather than chasing up people for money that he did odd jobs for /shrug.

It's really irrelevant though every bit of work he does that he doesn't want to do is abit of work that someone fresh off their apprenticeship could take and use to begin building a client base.
CherryRed wrote:How I know is irrelevant and is information I'd prefer not to enter into on a public forum, however, I do know that she is stealing items from there on a regular basis for certain.
Report it to the police let them follow up.

CherryRed wrote:Already reported, more than once - and there's actually 3 people (plus her) over 18 living in the same house, but she's the only one on the lease.
So centerlink has investigated and have decided they're entitled to what they're getting ?

If you're 100% sure centerlink has failed to do that then go report it to the tax office. https://www.ato.gov.au/Forms/Tax-evasio ... ting-form/
Because if they're getting entitlements they're not actually entitled too I'd bet that they are also not correctly declaring their taxes and I guarantee the ATO will follow up on it.




I think it's really important to realise that unless you are a person you don't know the full story. It might appear as though someone is doing the wrong thing when they are actually not, presumption of innocence is important.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by CherryRed » 22 Jan 2016, 17:51

Do you honestly think I reported someone I know well using my name and contact details? Even if I did, Centrelink would be under no obligation (and due to privacy, probably unable) to tell me the outcome of their investigation.

Also, you have no idea of my relationship to the three people above, but I can assure you that all three people are not merely 'acquaintances' - the relationship I hold with them is very close, which is how I know the details of their circumstances. Mr Tradie is not chasing up a 'big contract', he's sitting on his arse watching our NetFlix account. Out of repect for someone else in my life, I will not report the thief. The fraudster has already been caught dodgying up her taxes in the past, and I know her full story because with a wink and a nudge she recommended in my presence that someone else follow her lead as it's a sweet way to get out of having to return to work with kids.

So no, I won't presume innocence, because they're not.

Moving on.
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Mugsy wrote:
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I was raised to not do things I wouldn't want done to myself. And that's why anal sex is off the agenda.

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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by storm84 » 22 Jan 2016, 17:52

CherryRed wrote:I didn't suggest that we cease providing welfare, merely pointing out why I feel many people 'bitch' about dole bludgers.
Fair enough. The comment I made wasn't directed at you, but the problem the bitching creates.

Bitching turns into political action. It means politicians use dole bludgers to get elected. They pass laws that make welfare complex, incredibly intrustive, and expensive to administer and maintain. The rules around payments are incredibly complex, not to mention the costs of creating and maintaining the system, let alone the frontline of maintaining people within the system. Job seekers are required to jump through all sorts of hoops, and there are all sorts of conditions they have to meet in order to keep getting welfare. People on disability keep having their disability put under suspicion.

One can imagine the bitching as a sort of pissing in the wind - akin to bitching about dem immigants that took er jerbs. But it's always troubling when the bitching is translated into political action, because governments never make these things better when they act. Even with the best of intentions (and much talk about welfare is far from that), they find ways of making the system complex, often arbitrary, and inefficient/ineffective.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Matty » 22 Jan 2016, 18:27

CherryRed wrote:Do you honestly think I reported someone I know well using my name and contact details?
It's anonymous (or can be), like crimestoppers.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by CherryRed » 22 Jan 2016, 18:33

Matty wrote:
CherryRed wrote:Do you honestly think I reported someone I know well using my name and contact details?
It's anonymous (or can be), like crimestoppers.
I know, because I reported her anonymously - I was saying that I don't know the outcome of the investigation because I didn't hand over my details.
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Mugsy wrote:
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Disco » 22 Jan 2016, 18:54

Reminds me of this:

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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Nekosan » 22 Jan 2016, 20:02

Spooler wrote: So chances are this guy has paid substantially more in taxes than he has or will claim on welfare ? Unless you know for sure he's never going to work again, maybe he's just trying to organise another large contract for himself? And would rather devote his attention to getting said contract rather than chasing up people for money that he did odd jobs for /shrug.

It's really irrelevant though every bit of work he does that he doesn't want to do is abit of work that someone fresh off their apprenticeship could take and use to begin building a client base.
If everyone who just doesnt want to work stops working then the country ceases to function, welfare is for those who can't work or are unable to find work... not for lazy but fully qualified tradies to buy beer and smokes while old people eat cat food.
Spooler wrote: I think it's really important to realise that unless you are a person you don't know the full story. It might appear as though someone is doing the wrong thing when they are actually not, presumption of innocence is important.
It's pretty easy to know the full story when people brag about it or mention it in casual conversation.




Are you currently on the dole and not looking for work Spooler? Because you seem mighty pissed about this...
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by CherryRed » 22 Jan 2016, 20:11

Nekosan wrote:If everyone who just doesnt want to work stops working then the country ceases to function, welfare is for those who can't work or are unable to find work... not for lazy but fully qualified tradies to buy beer and smokes while old people eat cat food.
I was pretty well saying something similar to Disco earlier; welfare is not for those who are too lazy, it's for those who genuinely can't.

It's not like the actual 'bludgers' (ie: those who choose the dole as a lifestyle) are sitting back researching job availability in their area and then consciously making a choice to take one for the team by remaining unemployed - well, perhaps with the exception of a few who wish to use that as an excuse to justify their laziness. When the job market fluctuates, will they suddenly bound off their recliner to submit their application? Unlikely.
Nekosan wrote:Are you currently on the dole and not looking for work Spooler? Because you seem mighty pissed about this...
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Mugsy wrote:
09 Oct 2018, 21:26
I was raised to not do things I wouldn't want done to myself. And that's why anal sex is off the agenda.

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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Matty » 22 Jan 2016, 20:15

Welfare barely covers food. If your dole bulging friends are bragging about their sweet lifestyle, then you know, perhaps they are lying about that too. And you should probably find some better friends.

I'm on Austudy. *shrugs* Our welfare system really isn't that bad.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by CherryRed » 22 Jan 2016, 20:23

You've missed the part where I stated she's living WITH her husband (who has a full time job) but claiming he lives elsewhere, along with two other employed adults and she is claiming single parent payments for multiple children... is the money she's ripping off the system paying for all of it? fuck no, but it's giving her a fair whack of play money that she's otherwise not actually entitled to.

Oh, and FTR, on Tuesday it will be 12 months since I spoke to her in person - so cheers for the advice, but I've already picked up on that and made solid headway but due to family relations completely severing ties would create more issues than it's worth.
Matty wrote:I'm on Austudy. *shrugs* Our welfare system really isn't that bad.
Yeah, which is fine, you're DOING something. You're studying. You're not just sitting on your arse deciding that handouts will be a permanent way of life for you.
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Mugsy wrote:
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I was raised to not do things I wouldn't want done to myself. And that's why anal sex is off the agenda.

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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by storm84 » 22 Jan 2016, 20:41

Nekosan wrote:If everyone who just doesnt want to work stops working then the country ceases to function, welfare is for those who can't work or are unable to find work... not for lazy but fully qualified tradies to buy beer and smokes while old people eat cat food.
Isn't the age pension more than newstart?
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Matty » 22 Jan 2016, 20:46

Also cat food costs more than normal food.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Spooler » 22 Jan 2016, 20:57

Matty wrote:Also cat food costs more than normal food.

2 minute noodles 4 lyfe !
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by storm84 » 22 Jan 2016, 20:59

Matty wrote:Also cat food costs more than normal food.
Bloody age pensioners living it up on our hard-earned tax dollars...
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