Crafting Revamp

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Sathias
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Sathias » 29 May 2017, 16:43

I was like Andre, I did very little crafting on the old server. The smaller population and double XP have made crafting much more viable to my short attention span :P
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Sathias
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Sathias » 29 May 2017, 19:31

As a suggestion, it was discussed in Discord that the bug still exists if the damage bonus on a weapon matches the dice and damage type of the weapon itself. So +1d6 slashing damage on a scimitar won't do anything because it is already a D6 slashing weapon. So I would suggest the following changes to any D6 crafted weapons that are affected (superior, peerless, superlative??)

Rapier - Slashing
Scimitar - Piercing
Kama - Piercing
Shortsword - Slashing
Quarterstaff - Piercing
Handaxe - Bashing
Mace - Piercing
Sickle - Piercing
Club - Slashing

(In approximate order of priority, some of the lower ones might be a waste of time??)
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André Axe'm
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by André Axe'm » 31 May 2017, 14:40

Implementation Plan notes:
(obviously getting DM access fixed will be done first.)

Removed items will be kept in the palette but removed from the recipes. This means they can still be placed in shops. Some might even appear as rare loot drops... I'll make a deletion list in case we need to make more space at a later date.

I'm intending on releasing the changes in three steps so it isn't so huge to deal with (for me mostly).
+0-3, then +4-+7 then mythic stuff.

I am undecided on whether to include some wand crafting or unlimited versions of throwing weapons/quivers in this or wait until later.

Are people interested in reviewing the recipes before they are added? Writing them all out, even in generalised form, is going to take a significant amount of time. I'm going to try and ensure everything has a good mix of appropriately difficult to get ingredients, easily obtainable ingredients and whatever costly ingredients are needed to balance the scrap value. We can always change them at a later time if they are out of whack.
(oh and if anyone has actually looked at what is needed for a Superlative Diamond Amulet, I will be making the sensible...)


Semi aside, it looks like we need to rethink the lootable recipes a bit, as they appear to be flooding the server at the moment.
How would people like these to work, and does anyone have any ideas?
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Sathias
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Sathias » 31 May 2017, 16:27

Personally I would trust your judgement rather than make you write out the ingredients lists.
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Navarre
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Navarre » 31 May 2017, 18:08

I'm not so fussed about the wand creation, unless it could be added perhaps to the scribing process, say stack of 10 and you can stick it on a wand for a nominal fee, anything over 10 could be overused and you don't want sneaky rogues running around with bags and bags of spells on wands ;)

I was super impressed with the scripting on the unlimited shuirken I tested, but I am not sure what value they will have past very low level chars who want to attack from a distance, unless there is a pressing need for characters that want ranged weapons over the arrows (and we already have unlimited bows) I couldn't see them being useful once you get into higher levels. That might be just because I wouldn't personally play a ranged weapon char though!

I'm with Sath on the ingredients.

Yay for the Superlative diamond amulet update, I was wondering how the heck I was going to get all the stuff for that one...

I've not seen that many recipes persay, (I don't hunt that much yet) not yet seen a superlative or peerless one yet though (scrapped, people might be holding onto them though)

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Fraggermuffin
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Fraggermuffin » 31 May 2017, 21:07

Should we argue about it now or should I complain later? :P

Seriously though, I'm sure your recipes will be great. They can always be adjusted later when you get player input.

What I'd be more interested in seeing is the list of things you intend to cut before it happens and ask for feedback or voting before it happens.

I have found that recipes for Rogue Rings and Healing Rings seem to be everywhere. Still searching for a Superlative Fort Belt recipe, though.
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by André Axe'm » 31 May 2017, 21:14

Fraggermuffin wrote:
31 May 2017, 21:07
What I'd be more interested in seeing is the list of things you intend to cut before it happens and ask for feedback or voting before it happens.
I've already done that...
See the first post in this thread, and add those armours from the other thread.
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by André Axe'm » 31 May 2017, 21:22

Navarre wrote:
31 May 2017, 18:08
I was super impressed with the scripting on the unlimited shuirken I tested, but I am not sure what value they will have past very low level chars who want to attack from a distance, unless there is a pressing need for characters that want ranged weapons over the arrows (and we already have unlimited bows) I couldn't see them being useful once you get into higher levels. That might be just because I wouldn't personally play a ranged weapon char though!
But what about a Wisdom based Monk with Zen Archery and Superlative Shuriken?!?
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Iona » 31 May 2017, 21:22

Wand creation and unlimited throwing weapons are not urgent or even needed is my thoughts, maybe later.

Thumbs up for the Ammy.

Ingredients I think we can trust you with "winks" not too many hunted stuff more crafted hehe
.
Recipes seem to be very frequent on scrapper and have been offered several for free so think that needs a clean up. With crafting changes some of them may become redundant and tone down the others the server can be put to better uses.

Iona
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Fraggermuffin
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Fraggermuffin » 31 May 2017, 22:19

André Axe'm wrote:
31 May 2017, 21:14
Fraggermuffin wrote:
31 May 2017, 21:07
What I'd be more interested in seeing is the list of things you intend to cut before it happens and ask for feedback or voting before it happens.
I've already done that...
See the first post in this thread, and add those armours from the other thread.
"Remove the Belts entirely, as they are similar to lootable Greater Belt of Guiding Light and the Tulmaggs belts line."

Are they being chopped? I thought you had said something along the lines of: "Fine, you can keep them"

There is no mention in the OP of cutting the Dex Dragon Gauntlets, are they being cut? (they should be kept, IMO)

There is also no mention of losing the Mythic Upgrades we currently have for the Dragon Scale Gauntlets. You just list other items. Are they being replaced? Seems like a serious nerf.
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by André Axe'm » 31 May 2017, 22:27

Hrm, I guess I'll do another thread some time then.
I do want to drop the existing belts, and move their mythic upgrade to shields.
I see no reason to keep the Dex Dragon Gauntlets when we are adding extra options. (and no, a dex fighter doesn't need them as they can easily just swap for the str version and get the dex elsewhere.)
The current dragon gauntlet upgrades are going to move to dragon helms.
If you think moving existing properties around and having mythic levels of most equipment is a nerf, you are beyond anything I can do.
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Fraggermuffin » 31 May 2017, 22:47

It's a nerf to the gauntlet line. There are TONS of great Helm options already, but not many at all for the Glove slot. That made it a great item for a slot that didn't have many great options. Helm slot already has lots of good options. I like your new glove items, but they don't stand up power wise to the Mythic versions we already have. Ergo; nerf.

By moving those abilities to Helms you cut down our options drastically, IMO. Why not just keep them and add the helms?

If you cut the belts, what crafted items will then have Death and Fear immunity to replace them?
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Navarre » 31 May 2017, 23:13

Aw man, I loved the gloves and the belts. Just gave you a wider option of equip-able items. Seeing as I am not a shuirken wielding monk,:) I like the dex gloves.

Could the gauntlet properties just be added as an alternative creation to the dragon helms? So you could make a helm or a gauntlet with the same properties (still need the armor schematic anyway to make them) thus adding a new range of fashionable mythic helms and keeping the fancy gauntlets as well?

Seconding the question about death and fear immunity, I don't want to lug a bag of lesser mind blanks with me everywhere I go, I was always quite partial to my fort belts.

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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by André Axe'm » 01 Jun 2017, 13:22

You are getting a way wider range of equipable options.
The dex gauntlets are one stat different to the str ones, so they are massively degenerate since you would want to max you strength on most dex classes anyway for the damage bonus, so all it means is you swap a strength ring for a dex ring (or some other option) and you have the same stats.
There will be TONS of great gloves options when this is done as well.
I don't want to keep the elemental upgrades on the dragon gauntlets as it will overshadow the new glove options which won't make sense to have the elemental upgrades on. There is no point having a range of options if nobody will ever use them.
I don't really know what these TONS of great helm options actually are either. I can only think of Dragon Helms, Cowls of Warding, Assassins Hood (or whatever its called) and the Platinum Helm...

I seem to be repeating this a lot, but here we go again for the Death and Fear Immunity options:
Tullmags/Mai'Taphs belt still exists.
Belts of Guiding Light still exist (and will be getting an epic level loot version).
One of the new belts has Death Immunity (admittedly quite late).
Titanium (and higher) Shields already have Death Immunity.
One of the new head slot items has Fear Immunity.
New Dragon Helm line will have a bonus to Fear saves.
Cowl of Warding still exists.
The Dragon Gauntlet line still boosts Mind saves.
New Durability boots will boost all saves.
The Celestial Mythic shield upgrade will protect against Fear.
Lesser Mind Blank/Clarity potions are a good temporary option.
Craftable wands of Death Ward will eventually exist.
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by André Axe'm » 01 Jun 2017, 14:14

Extra Thoughts:

The Elemental Dragon upgrade would go nicely on the Dragon Scale armour...
Could also allow the Celestial/Abyssal upgrades on the Mirror Armour (if I can work out some stats on I'm happy with).
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Fraggermuffin » 01 Jun 2017, 20:05

André Axe'm wrote:
01 Jun 2017, 13:22
I don't want to keep the elemental upgrades on the dragon gauntlets as it will overshadow the new glove options which won't make sense to have the elemental upgrades on. There is no point having a range of options if nobody will ever use them.
Kinda sounds like you want to force us to use something inferior, rather than make something of equal power.
André Axe'm wrote:
01 Jun 2017, 13:22
I don't really know what these TONS of great helm options actually are either. I can only think of Dragon Helms, Cowls of Warding, Assassins Hood (or whatever its called) and the Platinum Helm...
Helm of Darkness
Crown of Thorns
Rainbow Helm of Kabu (before it was removed? Can it be reinstated?)

Seven excellent loot options. You could even say Helm of Intellect +6, at a stretch.

Lootable gloves I can only think of:
Spirit of Helios
Bracers of Blinding Strike
Maybe Bracers of Dex +6 at a stretch.
André Axe'm wrote:
01 Jun 2017, 13:22
I seem to be repeating this a lot, but here we go again for the Death and Fear Immunity options:
Tullmags/Mai'Taphs belt still exists. - A decent stop-gap, but cannot be runed and therefor not good at mythic levels.
Belts of Guiding Light still exist (and will be getting an epic level loot version). Very low powered compared to the craftable.
One of the new belts has Death Immunity (admittedly quite late). - Yeah, Superlative?
Titanium (and higher) Shields already have Death Immunity. - Good if you use shields, what if you're a mage, use a two handed weapon or two weapons?
One of the new head slot items has Fear Immunity. - Good for Wizards, but not a lot of other builds.
New Dragon Helm line will have a bonus to Fear saves. - A bonus does not prevent rolling a 1.
Cowl of Warding still exists.
The Dragon Gauntlet line still boosts Mind saves. - A bonus does not prevent rolling a 1.
New Durability boots will boost all saves. - A bonus does not prevent rolling a 1.
The Celestial Mythic shield upgrade will protect against Fear. I would expect that you could achieve immunity to fear before investing in Mythic Items.
Lesser Mind Blank/Clarity potions are a good temporary option. - Can be dispelled or expire, resulting in death.
Craftable wands of Death Ward will eventually exist. - Can be dispelled or expire, resulting in death.
I am currently using a Peerless Fort Belt over the improved Mai'taph belt. The fort save bonus ensures that I am only dying to Dev Crit on a roll of 1. Pretty vital on the Misty Islands.

Bonus to save items are not a great option, unless you want a 1/20 chance of dying every time you meet a high level dragon or lich, or any time something casts a Death Spell at you. As a crafter you should know how often 1's happen.
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by André Axe'm » 01 Jun 2017, 20:36

Fraggermuffin wrote:
01 Jun 2017, 20:05
Kinda sounds like you want to force us to use something inferior, rather than make something of equal power.
Yes, otherwise its creating massive power creep. Which I have said before.
Oh and excuse me for offering increases stats and saves as an alternative.

A Greater Belt of Guiding Light is only a few stat and save points weaker than the crafted belts and can be used earlier.
The intended Epic Belt of Guiding Light will be equivalent to the Superlative version.
There is also a mythic version of Mai'Taphs belt.

Also, "Can be dispelled or expire, resulting in death. " is bullshit.
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Fraggermuffin » 01 Jun 2017, 21:06

André Axe'm wrote:
01 Jun 2017, 20:36
Yes, otherwise its creating massive power creep. Which I have said before.
Oh and excuse me for offering increases stats and saves as an alternative.
As I've said, I like your new options, but not at the cutting of better options.
André Axe'm wrote:
01 Jun 2017, 20:36
Also, "Can be dispelled or expire, resulting in death. " is bullshit.
How is it bullshit? I have died or been feared plenty of times from a buff expiring and not noticing in time. Happened all the time on Misty Isles when my Shadow Shield from Sorcerer Staff wore off on Randy. Happened plenty of times when Mind Blank ran out against maps full of Lichs.

Look, if this is just "Andre's Sandpit" then just say so and don't ask for feedback. If you're making it for players then maybe take on board the things that they like.
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Karmic Skink » 01 Jun 2017, 21:42

Sounds like "Fraggermuffin's solo powerbuilding lab".
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Falstar » 01 Jun 2017, 21:59

André Axe'm wrote:
01 Jun 2017, 20:36
Yes, otherwise its creating massive power creep. Which I have said before.
So far across 2 characters (totalling 2.2 million xp worth of play) I have found 1 major rune, 1 minor rune, 0 Superlative gems and a handful of Peerless gems. Where is the powercreep supposed to be coming from??

From prior experience, if you don't have insane gear, it is impossible to play the late-game content. It's not a matter of powercreep or powerbuilding, but being able to survive the content currently in the game past lvl 40.

-EDIT-
And for runing items (weapons especially), I remember going through a dozen or more to get a decent roll on a weapon. I have 1 to use so far. I'm far more concerned about the drop rates currently than future power creep.
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Sathias » 02 Jun 2017, 06:13

Fraggermuffin wrote:
01 Jun 2017, 21:06
André Axe'm wrote:
01 Jun 2017, 20:36
Yes, otherwise its creating massive power creep. Which I have said before.
Oh and excuse me for offering increases stats and saves as an alternative.
As I've said, I like your new options, but not at the cutting of better options.
André Axe'm wrote:
01 Jun 2017, 20:36
Also, "Can be dispelled or expire, resulting in death. " is bullshit.
How is it bullshit? I have died or been feared plenty of times from a buff expiring and not noticing in time. Happened all the time on Misty Isles when my Shadow Shield from Sorcerer Staff wore off on Randy. Happened plenty of times when Mind Blank ran out against maps full of Lichs.

Look, if this is just "Andre's Sandpit" then just say so and don't ask for feedback. If you're making it for players then maybe take on board the things that they like.
May I make a request that feedback and responses to feedback stop before the point of these passive aggressive digs... Andre has taken on board a lot of suggestions, it's just that you two don't see eye to eye on this particular issue. No need to make things personal.

Thanks :)
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Fraggermuffin » 02 Jun 2017, 09:13

I have tried to remain constructive, but when someone calls you a liar it is hard not to fire back. I know Andre has put a ton of work in and I really appreciate that. I'm just at a loss to see why we have to lose items that multiple players have stated they want to keep.
Karmic Skink wrote:
01 Jun 2017, 21:42
Sounds like "Fraggermuffin's solo powerbuilding lab".
You make that sound like a bad thing! :P We live in a world of Dev Critting Succubus Archers and Ranged Mass Harm casting Zombie Pirates.

In regards to power creep:

Dusko, level 44. 1574573xp. Has found no Superlative Gems, and only 3 Minor Runes. Between the four Mythic Level characters that I know of not one has found a Superlative Gem. Given you need 2 Superlatives for most Mythic Items, I don't think we are in danger of overpowering the content for a few years yet at this rate.

In the last server, after years of play, I had two Mythic Items. Both were Dragon Scale Gauntlets.

edit - ps Karmic Skink, get yourself a CD Key!
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Sathias » 02 Jun 2017, 11:55

My comment (specifically the first sentence) was aimed towards all thread participants just so we are clear. This thread has had tensions flare up several times now and as a forum mod my job is to try and avoid that happening. Cheers :)
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by André Axe'm » 02 Jun 2017, 12:27

As I keep repeating, increased options and extending all slots to contain mythic options is going to increase the power of characters. This is partly countered by future harder content and partly countered by smoothing out abnormally powerful (and cheap) crafted items. I am doing this by moving a few things around. All properties will still be available, but might be available in different slots.

I have also said that I will be making it easier to get Superlative gems and reducing the requirements for making mythic equipment, so repeatedly assuming that the existing or past economic situation is relevant is not helpful.

Dispels of reasonable strength are not overly common in the module. If a temporary protection runs out/gets wiped, and you don't notice, and you roll a 1 against a save; then the planets must be aligned against you, or you need to pay more attention. Saying that a temporary effect running out kills you is hyperbole.

I have to optimise content difficulty, looted gear strength, crafted gear strength and the economy for this. If the best solution is going to make a couple of players cry about specific options vanishing, then I will have to make them cry. I would prefer not to make them cry, but if they aren't going to be happy with anything, then I can't do anything about it.

At the moment we have a server that can't be DMed, a possible fix that causes all the Leto Script functions to break, so it looks like I'm going to have to rewrite all the Leto Script functions some time soon.
I do not have time to repeatedly restate my reasoning to people who are just going to ignore my reasoning and claim that refusing to budge from their position of "leave everything in and make it cheaper" is constructive.
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Sathias » 02 Jun 2017, 13:36

I would like to propose a compromise position with regards to disagreements over these crafting changes.

It is clear that most if not all participants in this thread agree on 95% of what has been proposed, there are just a few sticking points. It is also clear (to me at least) that Andre has a clear vision of where he sees the crafting system going, and it appears (again, to me at least) that it will be more options, less irrelevant items, more efficiency (some of which has already been implemented), more consistency and streamlined requirements.

So, feel free to have your say, which many already have, but if there are remaining sticking points, rather than get bogged down on them, wait and see how Andre's vision goes in practice before making up your mind. The benefit of the position we are in now is that we aren't stuck in any one system any more. If things work out to be problematic as far as how the crafting system works in practice, we have the ability now to review and adjust, just like Andre is looking to do with some of the higher end drop rates.

I play a lot of Hearthstone, which has a lot less moving parts than this module, and constantly people make assumptions about how announced content will play out. They are almost always wrong. In a recent expansion, people saw the new Priest cards and made the judgement they were hot garbage. When the expansion was actually released, some of these cards became staple cards and others assumed to be OP ended up hardly ever played. Theorycrafting only goes so far.
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