Fallout 4... yay or nay??

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vcatkiller
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by vcatkiller » 12 Nov 2015, 02:24

Matty wrote:
Stoibs wrote: Bullet points include
- lack of skill system; Perks granting you the ability to 'Unlock tier 1 locks now' instead of proper lockpicking skill points are taking massive strides and steps backward in terms of character builds and progression, especially since the original games had varying degrees of skill point allocations dependent on your stats/traits/perks. This goes hand in hand with the game lazily moving away from a system where each and every skill point mattered and increased odds of success for a relevant task compared with this new 'perks for skills' system which basically takes it in milestones (LOCKPCIKING 1, LOCKPICKING 2 etc.)
Sure but ultimately it's the same in the end. You progress to a level, your stats go up. You can do the thing.
Only it isn't. In a classic skill-based system everybody has access to every skill, just some skills won't be as good as others. As opposed to this, where you can't do something unless you've bought the perks.
Stoibs wrote: - Lack of proper Dialogue system; This is automatically and straight up ceasing to be a 'role-playing' game and answers your question right here when I am literally not even role-playing my character anymore and am instead picking random non-descriptive phrases and crossing my fingers that the on-screen avatar says something that I wanted. Indeed all this 'phrase wheel' with a piddly 4 choices a piece does is cause the player to Quicksave/Quickload spam before each and every conversation while they play the immersion breaking guessing game until they got the conversation path 'right' and their character said what we wanted them to say - how in any way shape or form this could be described as me naturally 'roleplaying' my character and 'roleplaying' the game is absurd.
I've heard a few people say that the entire reputation/karma thing is now gone also for whatever reason, arbitrary cuts all around I guess..
You really hate the dialogue GUI. I don't really know what else you'd want from a dialogue system. You say things, it changes how the meeting plays out. I even put an example of it up earlier and that was just some random encounter. I've basically just started the game and my lack in speech skill has already affected how the game played out.
What I'd want from a dialogue system? How about the ability to walk up to any character in the game and have more than four options where I have to guess what I'm going to say? How about the ability to actually walk up to any character and just talk about anything, rather than a pre-defined hard-wired set of paths? Morrowind managed it pretty damned well, ok we missed out on recorded dialogue but so what?
Stoibs wrote: (From what I've read in reviews and told from family members/friends who have played since I obviously don't have first hand experience)
- Lack of alternate or otherwise non violent solutions to problems; The very review here on Player Attack (and others I've seen which corroborates it) makes mention of this unfortunate somewhat linear bloodthirsty narrative, touting that alternate solutions such as negotiation, unorthodox workarounds, outright joining said opposing faction etc. typically aren't ever presented as viable options, and the hamfisted approach of killing the problem to death is usually the common one more often than not.
Additionally it appears as though some of the more non combat related skills aren't used anywhere near as often as they otherwise could be and/or are simplified dumbed down also? (The aforementioned stimpack limb healing in this thread for instance) Certainly not used in dialogue anymore from what I can gather either.
Well this is wrong. I don't know what game Player Attack was reviewing (or what game your friends are playing) but you don't need to go kill everyone. I don't get how healing has been dumbed down. What do you do in a "tradiational" RPG? Perform surgery?
From most reviews I've read the game is pretty much combat oriented. It's either fight enemies head-on or sneak. Or the occasional dialogue wheel that lets you talk your way out of a problem. In your previous example if you told me you talked your way out of every combat with humans so far I'd be impressed. Otherwise you've sited one situation. Whoopdy doo.
Stoibs wrote: (From what I've seen in gameplay footage and other various reviews since again I don't have first hand experience)
- Overemphasis on FPS combat oriented gameplay to the point where it's no longer a culmination of your stat/gear loadouts and specific proficiencies and more of your twitch first/third person shooter skills taking the reigns; I hear you get Power armour about 20 minutes or so into the game proper. Apparently you can literally force critical hits rather than it being a culmination of your derived luck and perk related abilities now for some reason also. Most random snippets of gameplay I look up seem to feature the same or similar area of the character running around in third person mode in power armour tearing it up with a minugun in what straight up looks like some standard Gears of War style TPS run'n'gun game. I mean, all the promotional footage and teasers and whatnot leading up to this from months ago pretty much painted the same picture of this more dude-bro completely different 'Action-adventure or T/FPS genre approach to the game as a whole and I pretty much was saying the same thing on GoN back then too
Your criticism is that because the developers improved the first person mechanic, in a first person game, it's now a twitch shooter?
You do get power amour an hour into the game and your friends should tell you that it doesn't matter. Power amour isn't wearable amour. It's a thing, it uses power, it takes damage and you need to maintain it. It's great the youtubers can make a cool quick cut action game play scene of sweet minigun skills, but in reality it'll be sitting in a shed while you scavenge parts to repair it or look for a fusion cores to power it. I can't use the minigun, there is no ammo for it.

You are comparing what you think the game is to what it actually is. To be honest if people want some traditional old school style RPG then fallout 4 is not for you, however, Fallout 4 has come leaps and bounds from the originals. The RPGs you keep referring to are now a niche thing, this is why they are kickstarter. Fallout 4 however is amazing and it's not something that should be passed up because of some pent up hate about the origins of RPGs.
There's not very much evidence to the contrary. And this isn't about the origins of RPGs it's about where they are going, which is less and less RPG and more and more ARPG.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Matty » 12 Nov 2015, 05:49

vcatkiller wrote: What I'd want from a dialogue system? How about the ability to walk up to any character in the game and have more than four options where I have to guess what I'm going to say? How about the ability to actually walk up to any character and just talk about anything, rather than a pre-defined hard-wired set of paths?
I'll be honest with you, your talking simulator you described sounds like the most boring game in the world, but I guess Fallout and what you consider to be the modern RPG just isn't for you. I'm having a fantastic time. Is there anyone who here has the game and isn't enjoying themselves? I mean don't get me wrong, I have some huge criticisms to Bethesda, but overall I'm enjoying it.
Bicketybam wrote:I forget what it's called but the great big quarry pit not far from Concord, is it all wonky for others as in the ground you can walk through?
I was there and did the quest and mine was fine, but Moose said the same thing you did. I've noticed a few bethesda-esq bugs, AI really struggle to get through doorways on you houses you make. I fixed it by building the door on the side and putting stairs there, which snap the the bottom of the doorway.

I explored some satellite bunker and found a locket which is clearly important, no idea why though.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Sathias » 12 Nov 2015, 08:55

vcatkiller wrote:Only it isn't. In a classic skill-based system everybody has access to every skill, just some skills won't be as good as others. As opposed to this, where you can't do something unless you've bought the perks.
There is very little difference between FO4 and FO3/NV in this regard. All characters can open standard locks (equivalent of very easy) and advanced and above need perk points. Just like in FO3 where anyone could open Very Easy and you needed over 25 skill to open higher ones. The only difference is there is only 4 levels of locks instead of 5, and the two highest locks require you be a certain level to take the next level of the perk. Apart from that the only thing that is different is the numbers.
What I'd want from a dialogue system? How about the ability to walk up to any character in the game and have more than four options where I have to guess what I'm going to say? How about the ability to actually walk up to any character and just talk about anything, rather than a pre-defined hard-wired set of paths? Morrowind managed it pretty damned well, ok we missed out on recorded dialogue but so what?
Morrowind handled it well? Sure, there was walls of text you could read and lots of options you could click, most of which gave canned responses across multiple NPCs. I can't remember the speech skills being used for ANYTHING useful in Morrowind. You know this game had a record level of recorded speech made for it, right? Until they can come up with an algorithm which can come up with spoken voice on the fly without sounding like a robot and having multiple voices, what you describe is an impossibility. If you want to return to the days of walls of text then fine, I'm happy being in the present than you very much.
From most reviews I've read the game is pretty much combat oriented. It's either fight enemies head-on or sneak. Or the occasional dialogue wheel that lets you talk your way out of a problem. In your previous example if you told me you talked your way out of every combat with humans so far I'd be impressed. Otherwise you've sited one situation. Whoopdy doo.
Name one RPG, "proper" one or otherwise, where you can talk your way out of every combat. Just one. Otherwise you are holding the game to a higher standard than all the "classic" RPGs that you have on your pedestal.
Stoibs wrote:(From what I've seen in gameplay footage and other various reviews since again I don't have first hand experience)
- Overemphasis on FPS combat oriented gameplay to the point where it's no longer a culmination of your stat/gear loadouts and specific proficiencies and more of your twitch first/third person shooter skills taking the reigns; I hear you get Power armour about 20 minutes or so into the game proper. Apparently you can literally force critical hits rather than it being a culmination of your derived luck and perk related abilities now for some reason also. Most random snippets of gameplay I look up seem to feature the same or similar area of the character running around in third person mode in power armour tearing it up with a minugun in what straight up looks like some standard Gears of War style TPS run'n'gun game. I mean, all the promotional footage and teasers and whatnot leading up to this from months ago pretty much painted the same picture of this more dude-bro completely different 'Action-adventure or T/FPS genre approach to the game as a whole and I pretty much was saying the same thing on GoN back then too
Oh noes! A RPG actually has satisfying gunplay. Everyone to your bomb shelters! You know that gaming trope where near the start of the game they give you a fancy gun to play with, one of the end cars, something like that? You get to feel what it's like to be super powerful/advanced for a small section of the game as a preview to how it will play later? Driving games (as opposed to driving sims) do it all the time. That is all they have done in FO4, given a preview to what the game will be like when more advanced in resources. This is the problem with just looking at YouTube clips as evidence without seeing them in the context of the game.
There's not very much evidence to the contrary. And this isn't about the origins of RPGs it's about where they are going, which is less and less RPG and more and more ARPG.
First of all I would agree with this, second of all I'd say "...and?". If it doesn't appeal to you, fine. Don't play it. Go and play Wasteland 2, or Shadowrun, or whatever. Those games aren't Triple A anymore because it doesn't take a huge amount of resources to make one. Obviously there is still a market for them, which is why their Kickstarters are successful. But don't expect all games development companies to stay in the past.

Maybe Bethesda should have made a post-apocalyptic RPG that wasn't Fallout, but I don't see what difference it makes, personally. It doesn't mean there would be an alternative Fallout game more to your liking in it's place.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Stoibs » 12 Nov 2015, 09:18

Sathias wrote:Your lockpicking example isn't a great example of what you are trying to argue there. Skill points had very little to do with success in the previous games, all locks in FO3 and FNV had a hard limit..
Gonna have to stop you there.
I never once brought up or made mention of FO3 or NV, and by 'previous' games it's a sin for you to not be mentioning and including the original two games that I actually was comparing and talking about - in which there were no 25/50/75/100 milestone caps. Indeed the entirety of what I am talking about is the apparent dumbing down in these latest iterations to only have these 25/50..etc. milestones and not at all take specific skill allocations into account. In Fallout 2 my Doctor or small guns or lockpick etc. being at 35% was different than it being at 40% for instance, something that this game apparently doesn't and outright *can't* take into account with the removal of the entire skill system.
Matty wrote: Sure but ultimately it's the same in the end. You progress to a level, your stats go up. You can do the thing.
See above.
It's streamlined (AKA casualized and dumbed down for a wider and possibly younger audience) but at a cost of cheapening the roleplaying experience and the ability to gradually and manually craft your character specifically the way you want to at your own pace. (Instead of putting 2-3 points in here, 5 there in my Tag, another couple perhaps here and there on a level up, it's now 'YOU HAVE UNLOCKED THE NEXT ARBITRARY GATEWAY OF LOCKPICKING X TIER DOOR ONLY - COME BACK NEXT LEVEL TO BOOST SOME OTHER PREDETERMINED THING"
Matty wrote: You really hate the dialogue GUI. I don't really know what else you'd want from a dialogue system.
How about what basically all of us have already been saying both here and elsewhere again and again, the ability to literally outright see and pick the written responses in their entirety without the need for guesswork and Quicksave/Quickload spam? You know, like how literally every single other cRPG has done dialogue and conversations for 20 years or more now in games before Bioware decided to change it for the worse for whatever reason?
As I said, this right here is straight away and automatically a big and significant reason and argument as to why I'm no longer 'roleplaying' and it's less of or barely a 'roleplaying' when I am no longer.. you guessed it - 'ROLEPLAYING' my choices - a point that you failed to address or respond to, so I'll reiterate it here I guess.
Matty wrote: Well this is wrong. I don't know what game Player Attack was reviewing (or what game your friends are playing) but you don't need to go kill everyone. I don't get how healing has been dumbed down. What do you do in a "tradiational" RPG? Perform surgery?
So everyone is wrong and telling me fibs both here on the front page article, other similar like-minded reviews, the top rated steam reviews (Ohh 78% now), literally watching my brother play for a time, other people in this very thread etc and are all pulling my leg and having a laugh with me? Damn that's one hell of a prank.
Also if you need to ask, then yeah you basically had to go to a proper established doctor (Didn't you play Hardcore mode in NV?) or otherwise use the 'Doctor' skill and possibly relevant doctor/firstaid specific items to heal serious injury as opposed to injecting a syringe directly into your eye or broken leg and it healing straight up - another roleplaying and character build decision in the originals whether to skill into this or risk it out and hobble until you could get things mended properly. (Or have Lenny travel with you as a companion as a roleplaying choice :D)
Matty wrote: Your criticism is that because the developers improved the first person mechanic, in a first person game..
Your opening line is indeed one of my overall and overarching criticisms and some of the very points I'm bringing up and trying to convey to someone like you since this shouldn't be and in no way shape or form has ever been a 'First person shooter' in the first place to begin with.. what you say as 'improved', I say is 'unfortunately moving more and more away from its roots and making worse by genre shifting into something not at all RPG-like or what I as an original and long-time fan of both the franchise and traditional genre as a whole am interested in'
It's like what I said in the closing of my post, you clearly have this other predetermined notion of what an RPG is for you, whereas the rest of us don't.
Turning the game into a First person shooter by 'improving the first person shooting that shouldn't have been part of it to begin with' isn't one of them for me.
Hence the impasse.

The fact the you are nonchalantly dismissing others by saying things like "Your talking simulator sounds boring" reads to me like you have never actually been an RPG fan in the first place though honestly, I have to point out.
Matty wrote: Fallout 4 has come leaps and bounds from the originals...Fallout 4 however is amazing
Subjective opinion is certainly subjective and one you are welcome to, just not when stated as objective gospel. Just like it's my and seemingly many other folks opinion that this has just gone way too far in the non RPG direction to many people's dislike and are saying/reviewing it as such (in the relevant Fallout 4 discussion thread no less, so I don't see the issue. This isn't the 'lavish nothing but praise on Fallout 4' thread afterall, we're all here talking about the game as we should be)
Matty wrote: he RPGs you keep referring to are now a niche thing
If you say so and if that's the stance you want to take on something that you don't personally enjoy or agree with.
On the other hand I lost count of how many awards and praise and mainstream media recognition Divnity original sin got. Wasteland 2, Pillars, the Shadowruns etc. also too to a slightly lesser degree.
The amount of hype and excitement for Torment tides of Numenera around the place on relevant RPG communities and it being mentioned here and there in other RPG related news and forums is quite high too.
Again, different groups and interests that you clearly are not a part of or follow, hence this negative and handwaving 'niche' notion that you seem to think exists and are holding here I can only imagine.
Last edited by Stoibs on 12 Nov 2015, 11:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by NotThatDoug » 12 Nov 2015, 09:39

Finally started last night and didn't stop til my partner came and told me it is midnight. I'm hooked deep, love everything about, been working on fixing up my settlement mostly, got my house all set up properly now and everyone else has... a bed and a chair...

I played 3 and New Vegas a couple of times each on Xbox 360 so using the keyboard and mouse for the pipboy is a new experience for me, took a bit of getting used to. The light for the PIP boy is so much better now as well. The dialogue wheel is something I wasn't sure how I'd feel about it, I loved reading the stuff on the older ones, especially if you made a really dumb character but I think it works.

The RPG Elements still seem to be there, I don't know what the haters are hating on, you level up, you choose perks based on the plan you have laid out for your character build. I've played all the Fallout games and yeah this is a different system than the older games but it is just as much of an RPG as the rest, its not like the old ones had very complex systems for your skills anyway... Oh I want to make my guy sneaky... I'll click on the sneak skill a bunch to make a number go up. there we go I'm sneaky now. I like that they've changed it up. If they didn't a bunch of haters would still be hating and going "SIGH, can't Bethesda innovate, they are using the same leveling up system again, bunch of hack."

I don't get why people get so angry about it have FPS like elements either, I think they all screamed OBLIVION WITH GUNS so much when Fallout 3 was announced that it made people think guns were a bad thing, but the crazy guns you get in this game are part of the Fallout universe and have been since the beginning, of course it was going to be like an FPS, they decided to make the game first person to show a whole new side of fallout. Also, guns feel so much better than it did in 3/NV I'll be spending way less time in VATS this game.

My minor complaints is that the computer hacking and lock picking are the same, I guess its been established in the universe thats how you hack a computer and thats how you pick a lock but I was hoping they'd tweak them a bit, but then I can't figure out how they could tweak them any better so its not big issue... Also I wish you could rename Dogmeat, Because:

A - that name should be reserved for decendants of the original Dogmeat, which FO3s Dogmeant was and they are Blue Heelers which this pure breed German Shepard clearly isn't part of that bloodline.

B - He seems like a classier dog than the scrappy fighter that was the Dogmeat bloodline.

I'll just leave you all with the wise words from my girl Tay Tay

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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Dinofreak » 12 Nov 2015, 10:24

So much arguing and I'm just sitting here at work, waiting for the day to end, so I can go home and play more.

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Re: Fallout 4

Post by vcatkiller » 12 Nov 2015, 10:26

Sathias wrote:If it doesn't appeal to you, fine. Don't play it. Go and play Wasteland 2, or Shadowrun, or whatever. Those games aren't Triple A anymore because it doesn't take a huge amount of resources to make one. Obviously there is still a market for them, which is why their Kickstarters are successful. But don't expect all games development companies to stay in the past.

Maybe Bethesda should have made a post-apocalyptic RPG that wasn't Fallout, but I don't see what difference it makes, personally. It doesn't mean there would be an alternative Fallout game more to your liking in it's place.
You know this bugs me the most. I'm personally not saying I hate it, but everybody just assumes I am. By all accounts it looks like a great game with very minor RPG elements attached. But fine, apparently hating a few systems in a game makes me hate the whole thing.

Oh and then go and point me in the direction of top-down RPGs, because apparently it's the perspective I hate. At least you didn't say "rose-tinted glasses," points for that I guess.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by NotThatDoug » 12 Nov 2015, 10:39

I don't think he was telling you to go to Wasteland 2 because of the camera perspective, it has a lot of elements that are more like the original Fallout games than just the camera.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Matty » 12 Nov 2015, 19:49

Stoibs wrote: Your opening line is indeed one of my overall and overarching criticisms and some of the very points I'm bringing up and trying to convey to someone like you since this shouldn't be and in no way shape or form has ever been a 'First person shooter' in the first place to begin with..
And there it is. Your whole post is that you don't like fallout because it doesn't use dice roll mechanics, isometric views and identical stats system from a game made nearly 2 decades ago. You may be getting frustrated about the "rose tinted glasses" thing but this is why people are saying it.

Oh by the way you don't need to see a doctor in New Vegas hardcore mode, you simply needed just needed the right items to give you health, in this case stimpacs for health and doctors bags/misc items to repair limbs. Certain beds repair limbs too.
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Hardcore_mode
Stoibs wrote: How about what basically all of us have already been saying both here and elsewhere again and again
Ok so I have to point out "all of us" is a pretty large exaggeration. There is only one other person here who agrees with you and you both refused to play the game. I do find it interesting the only 2 people criticising the game at length are the only 2 here that don't own it.
Stoibs wrote: If you say so and if that's the stance you want to take on something that you don't personally enjoy or agree with.
On the other hand I lost count of how many awards and praise and mainstream media recognition Divnity original sin got. Wasteland 2, Pillars, the Shadowruns etc. also too to a slightly lesser degree.
The amount of hype and excitement for Torment tides of Numenera around the place on relevant RPG communities and it being mentioned here and there in other RPG related news and forums is quite high too.
Again, different groups and interests that you clearly are not a part of or follow, hence this negative and handwaving 'niche' notion that you seem to think exists and are holding here I can only imagine.
It's niche by definition. A special area of demand for a product or service. In this case a very small niche market. I'll prove it to you.
Wastelend 2: 61,000 backers
Shadowrun returns: 36,000 backers
Divinity OS: 19,000 backers
Torment: 74,000 backers.

Fallout 4, on steam sold 1.2million copies in only 24 hours. It cleared Wastelands sales in 1.22 hours of being onsale. And this doesn't include pre orders, Xbox sales or PS4 sales. There were twice as many people playing Fallout 4 simultaneously on PC than people who own Wasteland, Shadowrun, Divinity and Tormernt put together. But it must be my imagination or something.
Last edited by Matty on 13 Nov 2015, 01:03, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Sathias » 12 Nov 2015, 21:25

Matty wrote:
Stoibs wrote: Your opening line is indeed one of my overall and overarching criticisms and some of the very points I'm bringing up and trying to convey to someone like you since this shouldn't be and in no way shape or form has ever been a 'First person shooter' in the first place to begin with..
And there it is. You whole post is that you don't like fallout because it doesn't use roll dice mechanics, isometric views and identical stats system from a game made nearly 2 decades ago. You may be getting frustrated about the "rose tinted glasses" thing but this is why people are saying it.

Oh by the way you don't need to see a doctor in New Vegas hardcore mode, you simply needed just needed the right items to give you health, in this case stimpacs for health and doctors bags/misc items to repair limbs. Certain beds repair limbs too.
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Hardcore_mode
I used to go scavenging and if I found any medical type items I needed for a medical kit, I made sure I grabbed them so I could craft more kits when I got the chance. Seemingly worthless items in the wreck of a medical bay have a value. FO4 is even moreso in that regard, at one point I was selling spare weapons to buy junk from a vendor I met because they had internal components I needed to create the base I was trying to build, from an empty lot full of junk. But Fallout 1 had all that stuff of course... oh wait, it didn't have any of it :roll:
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Stoibs » 13 Nov 2015, 08:23

Matty wrote: And there it is. Your whole post is that you don't like fallout because it doesn't use dice roll mechanics, isometric views and identical stats system from a game made nearly 2 decades ago. You may be getting frustrated about the "rose tinted glasses" thing but this is why people are saying it.
So you're just going to conveniently ignore and gloss over all the other points I made then and focus on one (1) of them instead that was a mere part of what made up my points and responses to you? Oh, ok then..
And indeed like I said you needed doctor items to heal limbs in NV Hardcore, I suppose I may have been using a custom mod or something that removed the ability for them to mend from sleeping, my bad. Was merely using it as a reference to point out what I was talking about in any case, wasn't a big deal.
Matty wrote: Ok so I have to point out "all of us" is a pretty large exaggeration. There is only one other person here who agrees with you and you both refused to play the game. I do find it interesting the only 2 people criticising the game at length are the only 2 here that don't own it.
/Facepalm
I'm.. obviously not just talking about this thread dude...
I'm talking in general and in regards to the overall complaints and the counter-opinion here..I can't believe and am actually sorry I needed to explain that to you.. :roll:
At the end of the day you initially posed the question as to what makes the game less of an RPG and so instead of going around and searching for the answer that isn't that hard to find from other reviews and forums and opinion pieces, I took the liberty of informing you by using my own and other like-minded opinions/viewpoints that others are also holding from around the place and stated them here for your benefit.
One of which being - yes you guessed it - the worse and unintuitive phrase wheel system and why we don't just have regular written lines that has been standard in cRPG's since basically forever. Capiece?
For a third time now that you seemingly won't (or can't and are pretending to ignore) address, you still haven't responded to and explained how this massive step backward and new single phrase wheel system that outright and literally removes the roleplaying aspect and ability for the player to make proper and actual informed choices for their own character (that they are meant to be 'roleplaying') doesn't answer your question or break immersion in this regard. So I guess here it is mentioned yet again.
Matty wrote: Fallout 4, on steam sold 1.2million copies in only 24 hours. It cleared Wastelands sales in 1.22 hours of being onsale. And this doesn't include pre orders, Xbox sales or PS4 sales. There were twice as many people playing Fallout 4 simultaneously on PC than people who own Wasteland, Shadowrun, Divinity and Tormernt put together. But it must be my imagination or something.
Ok you've shown me initial 24hr sale figures (Though I'm not seeing anything in that article about clearing other games figures, as I'm not sure total sales figures for the other titles are even public knowledge) of this particular title, but at the end of the day I'm not arguing 'popularity of one of the most advertised (and arguably over hyped, oh look 77% review score on steam now compared to Wasteland 2's 84%) modern day streamlined iterations of a popular and now-days household name franchise compared to everything else. Advertising budgets are a little bit laughably skewed and biased, and Bethesda carved a newer and younger audience with the dumbing down and re-imagining of FO3 years ago already aswell to build upon.
I'm talking about the odd choice of word 'niche' here.
SteamDB tells a different story for instance.
Pillars of Eternity's concurrent player peak was close to 42 thousand (That's higher than AAA's and/or other 'popular' titles such as Saints Row 4, Mad Max, Fallout: NV, Batman Arkham Knight, Killing Floor 2, Farcry 3 etc.)

Divinity Original Sin's concurrent player peak was close to 22 thousand (That's higher than AAA's and/or other 'popular' titles such as XCom: EU, Farcry 4, Dishonored, FTL, Hotline Miami 2, Walking Dead season 2, etc.

Wasteland 2's concurrent player peak was close to 19 thousand (That's higher than AAA's and/or other 'popular' titles such as Farcry 4, Dishonored, Saints Row 3, Witcher 2, Dead Island etc.)

Shadowruns are about the least popular seemingly, and even they have several thousand a piece to the point where they are competing with and on the same level with other 'standard' and 'mainstream' titles (A few of them attaining higher numbers than the likes of Borderlands, Thief, Hitman, some Assassins creed games etc.)

Your definition of the word 'niche' certainly differs from mine I suppose, and your inability to concede and understand or believe that these things are actually pretty popular and desirable by a willing and hungry audience is blinding you, I think.
In any case this back and forth is going a little off-topic.
I do believe I answered your initial query with several points, (many of which you have yet to retort to) and put my differing opinion forth and tried to explain myself in a fair amount of detail. As I initially stated if you hold a differing opinion on what makes an 'RPG' (By your own words previously apparently reading bunch of stuff is 'boring' to you so your definition is questionable to me off the bat..) then so be it. That's certainly your prerogative.
The reviews and criticisms around the interwebs and as the leading steam reviews are there for your consumption however if you are still confused by this alternate viewpoint and want to delve into this 'phenomenon' and alternate opinion even further.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by vcatkiller » 13 Nov 2015, 09:42

You're wasting your time Stoib. Apparently we refuse to play it because isometric and rose-tinted glasses. Yes, we refuse to play it. Rose-tinted glasses. Dice roles. Isometric.

In fact, let's just squeeze it down to a single phrase so we've got what Matty seems to only see when he reads our posts and just say "we refuse to play rose-tinted isodiceroles." Ignoring the streamlined rest of the game mind you.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Werewolph » 13 Nov 2015, 09:52

While the discussion about whether or not Fallout 4 is an RPG is still civil, I think it's about time it was taken to PM's. The thread is about playing the game, sharing your experiences, quirks, tips, tricks, etc.

Having said that, I just completed my Model B power armour with Winter Paint! Looking schmick, if I must say so myself!
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Stoibs » 13 Nov 2015, 10:38

NotThatDoug wrote:A lot of the AAA games you listed there are older than my favorite pair of jocks,
I cited all-time highest peaks, meaning the playerbase at their most popluar and/or launch/heavy sale periods where the most people were active and playing. It doesn't matter their respective age as they are all on the same footing in this instance.
NotThatDoug wrote: Also Wasteland and Divinity both recently released their ehanced edit/directors cuts for free for previous owners so of course more people are going to play those than they are going to play Saints Row 3 or FTL,
Interestingly enough the enhanced editions for these actually had less players than the original. For Divinity Sin for instance the number I quoted was the initial original version, the enhanced edition which is a separate entry actually has significantly lower numbers.
NotThatDoug wrote: Also this is second time you've shown you are monitoring the steam user review score for Fallout 4,
Third, but who's counting :)
My point is that Steam reviews are only available to people who own the game, unlike general reviews or opinions from elsewhere. So I actually do consider them somewhat seriously and put a bit of stock into them when someone has spent a good $40~60+ dollars on this AAA to leave such a critique.
Ignore 'ME' for the moment and consider this from the perspective of Bethesda or the gaming industry as a whole (Or just random joe blogs interested in this game who is unfamiliar with the previous games):
Only 2 of the 15 'Most helpful' Steam reviews are positive.
http://imgur.com/8pRunze
Just from skimming that horribly blurry image of the initial few lines of those un-expanded ones I can already see a lot of mention of the (lack of) RPG mechanics being a big issue from like-minded individuals. I dunno, I'm not making this stuff up and it seems to be the general consensus by quite a lot of people from where I'm sitting no matter how many times others want to tell me I'm wrong or I don't know what I'm on about from not having played it myself. (This is precisely and literally what reviews are for, to inform others before making said purchases)

Joe blogs McCasual man who has a couple of hours of free time after work and family commitments doesn't get into the nitty gritty and specific details either, and a 77% score and lots of red bad reviews on something that was apparently the most hyped and looked-forward to AAA game of the year doesn't paint a good picture in anyone's book and is cause for concern and discussion.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by NotThatDoug » 13 Nov 2015, 11:31

So games that were PC exclusive on launch with kickstarter backers who were all given steam keys had a lot of steam players?

Yeah cause I really care what ^9_=MS_=^2CockRocket, who also reviews South Park stick of truth by saying "It's like skyrim, but with farts" has to say about Fallout 4 after 3.9 hours in game. I did actually read his review it was pretty crap, just because someone types up a massive post doesn't mean they know what they are talking about he probably could have cut it down to 1 paragraph and gotten the same message across.

Still doesn't change the fact, Steam reviews are trash, trash that can be voted on by anyone if they own the game or not, which is why most games end up with most helpful being the ones that were most brigaded by fanboys or haters and usually the haters get in first because the fanboys are busy playing. There was a time when Skyrims front page was all red thumbs down, GTA V still is a front page of red thumbs.

Also, why do the reviews of those people saying they don't like the game and it doesn't have RPG mechanics anymore hold any more validity over the people here who say the game is good and they still enjoy the RPG mechanics?
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Matty » 13 Nov 2015, 12:01

Stoibs wrote:
oh look 77% review score on steam now compared to Wasteland 2's 84%
Lol, I bet the 8 people that own wasteland2 gave it a fantastic review on steam.
Last edited by Matty on 13 Nov 2015, 13:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Matty » 13 Nov 2015, 12:14

vcatkiller wrote:You're wasting your time Stoib. Apparently we refuse to play it because isometric and rose-tinted glasses. Yes, we refuse to play it. Rose-tinted glasses. Dice roles. Isometric.

In fact, let's just squeeze it down to a single phrase so we've got what Matty seems to only see when he reads our posts and just say "we refuse to play rose-tinted isodiceroles." Ignoring the streamlined rest of the game mind you.
"Stop summarising my opinion wrong!"
*Procceds to summarise other people's opinions wrong*

Double post cause mobile and hard to edit.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by NotThatDoug » 13 Nov 2015, 12:23

As much as I enjoyed what I've played of Wasteland 2, (In my unprofessional opinion The "RPG elements" they copied from the old Fallouts aren't any better or worse than how Fallout 4 works, they are just different because they are different games.) I wouldn't trust its steam reviews any more that a AAA game, Kickstarter has a way of bringing out the cult mentality in some people, they put it so much more money than what it is selling for on steam that they have to believe its the best game ever.

I want to go home and play it now, I'm going to shoot stuff and level up and talk to NPCs and collect gear and build houses and laugh at all the fun I'm having while the haters are frantically scrolling through steam reviews trying to find another complaint they can use to confirm their opinion of a game they haven't played.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Stoibs » 13 Nov 2015, 12:44

So are we done now? Are we at the end of this pointlessnes? I've put forth all my points and examples and reasoning very clearly and with tact and civility in answering these initial queries and following it up with a fair amount of detail I feel, and this is the sort of responses I get back from the last few posters?
I honestly don't even understand what that post from matty is trying to convey and imply, and it's going to need explaining to me. Is he implying that there's only 8 people who own that particular game when it seems like it's actually closer to the 475 thousand~ half a million mark? (http://steamspy.com/app/240760)

I thought we were trying to engage in healthy discussion here and answer each other in regards to certain questions pertaining to game mechanics or why opinions are what they are with examples and fact, but when I try to do exactly that it seems like I'm just getting these sorts of trollish responses and handwaving posts that seemingly aren't even interested in this discussion in the first place (which begs the question why they keep requoting and wanting to discuss it over and over..) What am I missing here?
Maybe I should just be taking your advice Vcatkiller, since I seem to be wasting my time in answering the very questions that these very people are positing by putting forth these counter points; when they are seemingly not at all what they actually want to hear or see when presented as such.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by vcatkiller » 13 Nov 2015, 12:51

Matty wrote:
vcatkiller wrote:You're wasting your time Stoib. Apparently we refuse to play it because isometric and rose-tinted glasses. Yes, we refuse to play it. Rose-tinted glasses. Dice roles. Isometric.

In fact, let's just squeeze it down to a single phrase so we've got what Matty seems to only see when he reads our posts and just say "we refuse to play rose-tinted isodiceroles." Ignoring the streamlined rest of the game mind you.
"Stop summarising my opinion wrong!"
*Procceds to summarise other people's opinions wrong*

Double post cause mobile and hard to edit.
You get what you give. If you can overgeneralize so can I.
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Re: Fallout 4

Post by Sathias » 13 Nov 2015, 14:35

Stoibs wrote:(and arguably over hyped, oh look 77% review score on steam now compared to Wasteland 2's 84%)
That really is an awful comparison. People who have not even played the game often give 0% reviews to protest various things they don't like, whether it be game mechanics, the company involved, DRM, lack of FOV options, whatever. And it happens more for bigger budget games where people feel like they are protesting against "the man". It doesn't happen to the same degree with independent games.

I'm going to stick out of this argument from now on because it feels largely pointless, but the sum of this argument is basically as follows. We are trying to convince you guys who haven't played it that Fallout 4 is a good game, while you guys are trying to convince us people who are playing and greatly enjoying it that it isn't.
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Re: Fallout 4... yay or nay??

Post by Sathias » 13 Nov 2015, 14:55

As I said in the other thread, the debate over Fallout 4 and its relative merits and flaws have been moved to this thread. I had several people mention it was distracting from discussion of the gameplay itself. Any of those types of posts in the other thread will be removed from now on.
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Re: Fallout 4... yay or nay??

Post by vcatkiller » 13 Nov 2015, 15:07

I had this all type out on the other thread. Thank goodness for copy/paste :)

Satthias: I think you've just hit on the problem right there. Essentially we're having two different arguments:
1. Fallout 4 is a great game experience. I agree, it looks awesome, once I get some cash together I sure want to jump in and give it a shot.
2. Fallout 4 is not an RPG. Given a lot of the footage and reviews, plus a lot of the content Bethsoft released up until release, I'm inclined to agree it doesn't look like one to me. Maybe an ARPG, or an FPS with RPG elements tacked on, but not a full-blown RPG.

As somebody who has played RPGs for a while and absolutely love the genre, especially first person RPGs, watching what the likes of Bethsoft have done to the genre irritates me. I don't like how the games have become ever more simplified, instead of adding more options the options have become steadily more removed. BUT! That does not mean I hate the games. Skyrim's systems bothered the hell out of me, but I still sunk over 60 odd hours into it and loved the daylights out of it. I wish there was a better conversation system, I wish there were stats and skills instead of a dozen perk trees, I wish there was more to do than just walking around bashing things because Joe Blow over there told me to. But it was fun!

I imagine Fallout 4 for me will be the same. I will sink in a good hundred hours or so. I will enjoy running around causing havoc. I will wish the character system and conversations had more depth than a kiddy's wading pool. Overall I think I'll have a blast though.
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Re: Fallout 4... yay or nay??

Post by Stoibs » 13 Nov 2015, 15:12

Sathias wrote:As I said in the other thread, the debate over Fallout 4 and its relative merits and flaws have been moved to this thread. I had several people mention it was distracting from discussion of the gameplay itself. Any of those types of posts in the other thread will be removed from now on.
Ah.. that makes sense. Was getting a bit confused and wondering what was going on for a second there. (Although is that actually what the other thread was meant to be about? Only the gameplay? I was under the impression it was an all encompassing 'FALLOUT 4' thread and the discussion we were having was indeed relevant. My apologies if that was not the thread's intent)

Was going to say something else but Vcatkiller covered it, I'm talking about it in terms of being a good/bad RPG (or even an RPG at all..), whereas you seem to think we are just slamming and hating on it for the sake of it.
Indeed in basically all my responses to people like matty who directly and outright posed the question pertaining to this, it's what I've been focusing on and specifically talking about, and my relevant points and examples have been around this subject matter (It was only when someone else pointed out the review scores that I then also and as an aside decided to address it also)

Seems like you or other folk have crossed wires somewhere along the way.
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Re: Fallout 4... yay or nay??

Post by Sathias » 13 Nov 2015, 18:24

Btw vcat, just thought you might be interested to see this being you were asking about non-combat options, was browsing the perk list and saw this high level CHA one.

Image

Some of the high level perks look like they could change gameplay style quite a bit.
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