I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

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Spooler
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I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Spooler » 21 Jan 2016, 15:54

So today I had an old friend from primary school friend of mine on facebook post "10 years today my taxes having been going to dole bludgers"
I posted the following to point out how idiotic of a comment it was but also to shed light on the actual nature of unemployment in this country.
I'm sharing it with you here because I honestly believe it's really important that we get past the ridiculous notion that dole bludgers are some sort of serious economic problem, I'm sick of seeing the scape goat being so broadly used and rarely challenged.

With that in mind I know it's abit of a wall of text but please read it and seriously think about what I've wrote and if you know people that like to use the "dole bludgers" thing please seriously think about challenging them or even just directing them to this post.




Actually if you do the math the unemployed only make up about 1% of the budget cost,
Annual budget is ~434Bn welfare spent on unemployed is ~4Bn.
It actually costs almost as much to run centerlink (3.9Bn spent on administration) as all of unemployment does.

If you make the assumption that most of those are genuinely looking for work~744,000 people looking for work that are not currently employed.(source: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6202.0)

Considering there are only ~167,000 job vacanies in all of Australia(source: http://www.abs.gov.au/.../542E47978ED4A ... 2AC0018067... )

You can assume that it is impossible for every Australian that is unemployed to get a job 744-167 leave us with 544,000 Australians that jobs simply do not exist for.

This means that most people looking for work will not be able to find it simply because the jobs do not exist within the market. meaning that being a "dole bludger" is a concept that is actually mathematically impossible as desire to work is irrelevant as there are not enough jobs to actually reach full economic employment of the workforce.

Ignoring this though we are left with the conclusion that less than 1% of your tax dollar could possibly be spent on "dole bludgers" as there simply aren't enough people not looking for work to actually account for any meaningful impact on government spending. You've actually spent more of your tax dollar running centerlink offices than you have on the unemployed that need said services.

In-fact here's a list of actual government was so the next time you complain about where your tax dollar is going you're actually complaining about something that makes a damn of difference from an economic point of view.

Private schools: 10Bn 2.3% of the budget.
Mining: 3.1Bn <1% of the budget it just pisses me off that Gina Rinehart gets welfare.
Government super annuation benefits: 4.1Bn 1% of the budget they get more than the 700,000+ Australians currently unemployed.
That's about 4% of your tax dollar going to waste right there.

If you want to know where most of your money is going.
Assistance to the aged: 60Bn 13% of the budget.
Assistance to families: 38Bn 8% of the budget.
21% of your tax dollar goes directly to old people and families. These are the 2 biggest points of expenditure for the Australian government.


**edit**
Tl;Dr
It's actually less than a percent that ends up going to "bludgers".
They have 0 economic impact, there's far worse things in the budget to concern yourself with.
Most of the money we spend helps families and the elderly.
Last edited by Spooler on 21 Jan 2016, 16:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about doll bludgers.

Post by Disco » 21 Jan 2016, 16:11

I still don't want a cent given to anyone who just doesn't want to work, I have to earn my keep, so should they.

Different of course for those who for legitimate reasons can't work, or are trying to find work, but I'm sure most of us know at least one person who is abusing the system because of 'back pain' or claiming to be a single parent when they aren't.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about doll bludgers.

Post by Disruptor4 » 21 Jan 2016, 16:25

"Doll".......
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about doll bludgers.

Post by DarkMellie » 21 Jan 2016, 16:31

The real problem is the corporations that don't pay taxes. Extract the right amount of coin from them and suddenly, we're doing okay.

And the problem, Disco, is differentiating between the two is an insanely complex job. You stated 'back pain' and I agree there, my natural instinct is 'fuck off' but how do I know what it feels like for them? If you put everyone in Australia who doesn't work due to back pain in one room... how the hell are you going to tell them apart?

We are wealthy enough as a society that we can afford to support people who can't, for whatever reason, earn the coin the rest of us do. International (read: American) corporations and their tamed goverments want us to turn inwards on ourselves while they write deals without our permission or even oversight, so they can continue to fatten their coffers to our detriment.

Shit, just look at the requirements under the tax act to confirm what country people claim citizenship and residency....we do this as a country because America put the pressure on us to find its own tax-dodgers! How does another country force a friend to enact that kind of regulation?

Step out of the regular old discourse, refuse to propogate the same old bullshit and stop turning on each other!
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about doll bludgers.

Post by Spooler » 21 Jan 2016, 16:43

Disruptor4 wrote:"Doll".......
my bad, fixed.
Disco wrote:I still don't want a cent given to anyone who just doesn't want to work, I have to earn my keep, so should they.

Different of course for those who for legitimate reasons can't work, or are trying to find work, but I'm sure most of us know at least one person who is abusing the system because of 'back pain' or claiming to be a single parent when they aren't.
There's over 700,000 unemployed people in Australia seeking work.
There's under 200,000 thousand job vacancies.
700
-200
=500

Why does it make one tiny bit of impact if there's people that don't want to work if there aren't enough jobs to go around any-ways? why bother looking down your nose at them and judging them if they aren't motivated ?
If a doctor is willing to write a certificate saying there's something medically wrong why bother questioning it when it has 0 economic impact as you need to support these people anyway.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by stingtwo » 21 Jan 2016, 16:51

Because they are the ones bitching and moaning the most that they don't get paid enough to sit on their asses, thats why we look down on them.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about doll bludgers.

Post by Disco » 21 Jan 2016, 16:56

Spooler wrote:
There's over 700,000 unemployed people in Australia seeking work.
There's under 200,000 thousand job vacancies.
700
-200
=500

Why does it make one tiny bit of impact if there's people that don't want to work if there aren't enough jobs to go around any-ways? why bother looking down your nose at them and judging them if they aren't motivated ?
If a doctor is willing to write a certificate saying there's something medically wrong why bother questioning it when it has 0 economic impact as you need to support these people anyway.
Why bother making a post about how calling people dole bludgers annoys you? Because it's something you're passionate about, it ticks me off to no end that people can get a few extra hundo a week in their pocket by being a lying dole bludger, and in my opinion if you're too lazy to work or don't have the motivation, they should go live under a bridge and scavenge for their own food rather than having it handed to them.

That money, and I'm sure you could work it out if you wanted to, would be better spent in other places, on other things, and other people who actually have earned the help.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Dexterians » 21 Jan 2016, 16:59

For every 1 legit person on the dole there's 1 person taking advantage of it.

I think your friend is talking about the latter, the proper "dole bludger".
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Matty » 21 Jan 2016, 17:02

Crime would skyrocket Disco. Bludger or not it's still a better outcome for the general population to do it this way.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Ralph Wiggum » 21 Jan 2016, 17:29

I agree with Disco. If someone is capable of working, then they should be actively looking for work, or studying or something. Hell, even voluntary work would be great. There are people who genuinely do NOT have any motivation to work and expect to receive a taxpayer funded benefit. I don't care if they cost us $1 million or $ $1 billion. They are bludgers.

My gf is recently unemployed so please don't think I'm speaking from my ivory tower.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Sathias » 21 Jan 2016, 17:36

Even though he's turned into a complete nutjob in recent years, Mark Latham wrote some very interesting books back in the day that used to talk about "downward envy". Instead of people looking "upwards" at the rich people and questioning why people have so much, people are encouraged to look "downwards" and envy the people that have little instead. Dole bludgers get money for doing nothing, aborigines get more money and benefits than the white feller, refugees get free housing, prisoners get given TVs and Playstations. Most of the time it is exaggerated or just out and out bullshit, and who is it that encourages us to think like that? The media. Organisations owned by the types of people like Murdoch and Packer, that run these stories and get people riled up about the whole injustice of it all. And of course, political parties like the Liberal Party who mainly represent the interests of said rich people. Instead of attacking corporations that pay little or no tax, they go after welfare and penalty rates. It's pretty insidious and I think quite deliberate.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Matty » 21 Jan 2016, 17:40

Just sayin, how everyone here feels about dole bludgers is how the upper class feel about all of you. They would pay you below minimum wage if possible and consider you all lazy, unfocused, uneducated and a burden.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Forgetful_Lion » 21 Jan 2016, 17:49

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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Spooler » 21 Jan 2016, 18:33

Dexterians wrote:For every 1 legit person on the dole there's 1 person taking advantage of it.

I think your friend is talking about the latter, the proper "dole bludger".

Source ?
Every single data point I have seen on it seems to suggest that the number is far far fewer than that.


@disco
If I'm passionate about anything it's making people seriously stop and think about things before they jump on a particular band wagon.

Dole bludgers and welfare recipients in general are not really something I'm passionate about, it's something I'm sick of hearing because it's utter bullshit.
Why bother complaining about "dole bludgers" when we're not even remotely close to full employment any-ways, I actually see it as a good thing that these people aren't in the jobs market. If they really don't want to work forcing them too would likely have a negative economic impact.

Think about it, if someone who doesn't want to work seeks employment and gets paid to half ass a job they are denying someone who wants to do that job the opportunity to use their whole ass to do it, which has a negative impact on the firm that hired the lazy bastard rather than the one that actually wants to work and go above and beyond rather than just settling for the bare minimum required to keep their pay check.

It makes no sense to force these people to work when there's already 500,000 people that simply do not have job vacancies to fill, why they chose not to enter the labour market is ultimately irrelevant as even if they were in the labour market they would likely be unemployed any-ways.


Whether dole bludgers choose to work or not. the government needs to pay for them as it's impossible for our economic to provide full employment so why does it matter whether that's choosing not to work or being physically unable to work ?

Disco wrote:and in my opinion if you're too lazy to work or don't have the motivation
So if you don't have the motivation because you have crippling depression, fuck you go live under a bridge you sub human piece of garbage ?
Or is it ok if you have a mental disorder ? Because I've seen more people take breaks from the job market for depression than I have for physical injuries.

But then they could be faking that disorder and you'd just second guess them and class them as bludgers anyway right ? Because that's how it works for physical injury so why not do the same for mental.

And even if someone just flat out does not want to work, they have no desire to do it there's nothing in life they could do that they enjoy, why should they be forced to starve for that ? Like again we have 500,000 more unemployed seeking work than we have job vacancies why does it make any difference if someone has 0 motivation to do anything with their life ?


stingtwo wrote:Because they are the ones bitching and moaning the most that they don't get paid enough to sit on their asses, that's why we look down on them.
Actually the people that are bitching that new start isn't enough usually are the ones that need things like petrol to get to job interviews.
Or even the ones that have only been able to get part time work, that need to extra support from centerlink to keep a roof over them and not starve to death.

On the other hand if you're happy just living off newstart and don't want to do anything with your life beyond that it's completely viable to rent a small one bedroom and live pretty comfortably off of it. Like really if you have no ambition if you're happy just coasting along you could totally do that comfortably with the existing system, the problem is when you want to try and pull yourself above the poverty line.





Why is that if you take advantage of a tax break for your corporation you're a smart business man, but if you take advantage of something that you need to not be hungry you're a moocher? -Jon Stewart
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Disco » 21 Jan 2016, 18:43

Yeah look I can see you're going to be pretty sensitive about this and take everything to the extreme, so I'll bow out of this one, nice talk though.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by DarkMellie » 21 Jan 2016, 18:50

Spooler is spot on.

Enjoyable read so far :D
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Ralph Wiggum » 21 Jan 2016, 18:59

Edit: NVM. Shoulda stayed out of this one.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by DarkMellie » 21 Jan 2016, 19:07

Matty wrote:Crime would skyrocket Disco. Bludger or not it's still a better outcome for the general population to do it this way.
Plus it's humane. It's a very narrow-minded view that says 100% of the population has to have their shit together and be productive. There will always be elements that are not for a wide variety of reasons.

But as Spooler, Sathias and I have stated, you are looking in the wrong direction. It's very much an 'us and them' world, where us are the people who don't have gigantic piles of power, influence and money, and them are the ones that shape your mind to accept their obscene overlordship.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Spooler » 21 Jan 2016, 19:34

Disco wrote:Yeah look I can see you're going to be pretty sensitive about this and take everything to the extreme, so I'll bow out of this one, nice talk though.

It's not a sensitivity thing, this is not emotional for me. It's economical to make this big deal out of dole bludgers that would have to be paid for anyway.
It bugs me that people have bought the ridiculous scape goat that is the "dole bludger". We have really serious economic and work force issues in this country that seemingly get swept under the rug because people are happier to demonize those on welfare than they are to actually find where the fault lies.


It also irritates the crap out of me that people actually think dole bludgers have any impact on the economy at all is stupid as hell and one of the many idiotic things that we as a society have decided to pretend is actually a problem.

Even if these people enter the jobs market they likely wouldn't find employment and would have to be paid for anyways. If they do enter the jobs market people more eager to work would be put out of a job.


They're a completely irrelevant group and yet they get so much attention and anger it's absurd. I honestly believe if people looked at the reality of it and the sheer mathematical fact that there simply isn't enough vacancies in the market for everyone they'd move past their irrational hatred for this group of people and stop trying to use them as a scape goat all the dammed time.


Unless you honestly believe that people should starve because they're not motivated I really don't know how you can be angry with people that live either at or below the poverty line.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by storm84 » 21 Jan 2016, 20:00

I'm always surprised that anyone goes on about things like this given there's a tax breakdown in your tax return, and a very small percentage of that goes to unemployment. It's hard to imagine that everyone who is unemployed is a dole bludger, even before taking into account the lack of jobs available. Even if every job was vacant, we'd still have hundreds of thousands on unemployment.

Really, though, I think beating up on unemployed people is a bit silly given that unemployed people can't give themselves jobs. What are we doing to help the youth into work? What about the long-term unemployed? What about those over 50? There are clear demographics where unemployment spikes, yet unemployment is treated as a personal failing. It's focusing on one side to the detriment of others.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Spooler » 21 Jan 2016, 20:24

It's actually kind of hilarious.

We're right at the start of the robot age, this is actually going to become a serious problem, how do we deal with unemployment when there's simply fewer things we need humans to do ?

the more efficient AI and robotics get the fewer occupations humans will be needed for, do we just let everyone who was a cab driver starve to death when Google announces "Google cabs" because they're 40 years old and don't want to retrain or simply can't find work and have given up searching ?
At what point do we say "it's ok to not have a job or to have given up on it" ? Or do we as a society choose to just keep vilifying the unemployed ?
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Otto-matic Reiffel » 21 Jan 2016, 21:36

Think of it this way. It's much cheaper to give genuine bludgers a bit of cash than it is to imprison them after they are cut off and turn to crime to live as well as whatever societal impact the increase in crime causes.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Longflanks » 21 Jan 2016, 22:46

With work for the dole now being enforced, I dont think anyone gets payed to sit on their arse anymore
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Matty » 21 Jan 2016, 22:54

I knew someone on it and they had to work at some church thing until they got a proper job.
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Re: I'm so tired of hearing people bitch about dole bludgers.

Post by Spooler » 21 Jan 2016, 23:26

Longflanks wrote:With work for the dole now being enforced, I dont think anyone gets payed to sit on their arse anymore

I know someone on work for the dole that literally does nothing, she is forced to go to a place and just stand their untill the supervisor aays they've spent enough time.
Hilariously it costs more to have their supervisor watch her do nothing than than she gets in newstart.

When you live in a rural area there's not a whole lot that you actually can do. Centerlink gave up on trying to make work for people in alot of larger rural towns awhile ago and just force them to go to a place for hours a week because they need to work for the dole.



Also a post from reddit summed up the actual problem pretty well:

Unemployment is a structural feature of our economic system. Labour is an economic input, just like any other commodity. Governments, business and consumers want and need there to always be a small oversupply in the labour market, because a buyer's market means that wage inflation stays low, and the consumer price index stays steady.
Paying unemployment benefits to maintain a small unemployment queue is cheap compared with what would happen to your cost of living in a zero-unemployment seller's labour market. If you let your job seekers starve to death you are actively forcing up the price of labour, thereby forcing up the price of everything you buy.
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